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omike015 

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I dropped pretty much all of the DC Universe books right around the time of the end of the Johns/JRJR run. Reasons for that aren't important to this post, but what is important is that while I try to keep up with the goings-on on a superficial level, as we get farther from when I've read the books on a regular basis, doing so becomes increasingly difficult. Reading solicits, message board posts and the occasional review works to a point, but the sheer amount of time needed to track down that information ... well, no one has that kind of time.

I picked up the recently released WONDER WOMAN ANNUAL #1, interested in the idea of a self-contained Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman tale. The story tells of the first meeting between the three characters, set shortly after Wonder Woman's debut, which took place when the two male heroes were established in figures. This lead to a some questions I hope someone would be willing to, briefly and simply, explain.

It has been my understanding the Superman currently appearing in the books is the pre-Flashpoint version of the character, brought to this universe via some wibbly-wobby-comic-book-science, and having stepped into the shoes of the New 52 Superman who shuffled off to the great beyond. So, the first question is, am I incorrect in that understanding?

Second, this story, set in the early days of all the characters, ostensibly features that pre-Flashpoint Superman. So how does that fit with the question above when given a linear timeline, he would not have been operating as Superman when Diana debuted.

Following up from that, who knows there was a Superman, and now a different Superman? And two Loises (Loisi?)? Everyone? Just the Justice League? Select villains? It seems like a pretty big thing to just slip beneath Luthor's radar. What about Lois' family? Does Sam Lane know the Lois Lane trotting around Metropolis isn't "his" daughter?

(And related to that, in a way, during Johns' run, Superman revealed his identity to Jimmy. And then after I dropped the books, Lois revealed Superman's identity to the world. How has all of that been handled with the "old" Superman taking up the role again?)

And all of this leads me to question the Mr. Oz revelation -- but again, I've not read the issue but I realize this probably wasn't answered there, so consider this rhetorical for now -- but is this pre-Flashpoint Jor-El or New 52 Jor-El?

Thank you to anyone who can explain to me. While I stand by my decision of dropping the books, I do miss being able to keep up with the ongoing narrative -- and also miss being the guy that could usually answer these questions. I really appreciate your patience. \:\)




omike015
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JS


Member Since: Thu Oct 29, 2009
Posts: 185



    Quote:
    It has been my understanding the Superman currently appearing in the books is the pre-Flashpoint version of the character, brought to this universe via some wibbly-wobby-comic-book-science, and having stepped into the shoes of the New 52 Superman who shuffled off to the great beyond. So, the first question is, am I incorrect in that understanding?


That was true until the "Superman: Reborn" arc, but not anymore.


    Quote:
    Second, this story, set in the early days of all the characters, ostensibly features that pre-Flashpoint Superman. So how does that fit with the question above when given a linear timeline, he would not have been operating as Superman when Diana debuted.


At the end of "Superman: Reborn", there was a continuity reboot where history was rewritten. Now the New 52 Superman never existed, this Superman was always the one and only Superman, and their histories have been combined and integrated. The flashbacks in Wonder Woman Annual #1 take place in this new, rewritten timeline.


    Quote:
    Following up from that, who knows there was a Superman, and now a different Superman? And two Loises (Loisi?)? Everyone? Just the Justice League? Select villains? It seems like a pretty big thing to just slip beneath Luthor's radar. What about Lois' family? Does Sam Lane know the Lois Lane trotting around Metropolis isn't "his" daughter?



    Quote:
    (And related to that, in a way, during Johns' run, Superman revealed his identity to Jimmy. And then after I dropped the books, Lois revealed Superman's identity to the world. How has all of that been handled with the "old" Superman taking up the role again?)


The New 52 Superman died, Lex Luthor announced his death to Metropolis, and then the Pre-Flashpoint Superman appeared in Metropolis, much to everyone's surprise. The world knew the Superman they've always known is dead, but now there's a new Superman in town. No one knows who he is or where he came from, but they know he's a different person from the now-deceased Superman.

At the same time, a human version of Clark Kent suddenly turned up in Metropolis. This Clark looks exactly like the Clark everybody knew, but he was fully human, believes he's always been human, and started telling everyone that he was never Superman and the whole thing was a hoax.

Around that time, the New 52 Lois developed superpowers of her own. And then she died. And then the Pre-Flashpoint Lois decided to take over her identity and job at the Daily Planet.

Then "Superman: Reborn" happened, the truth about the human Clark was revealed, and then none of this ever happened.


    Quote:
    And all of this leads me to question the Mr. Oz revelation -- but again, I've not read the issue but I realize this probably wasn't answered there, so consider this rhetorical for now -- but is this pre-Flashpoint Jor-El or New 52 Jor-El?


That hasn't been explained yet.


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Daveym 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 37,223



I should add a little to that - Superman decided to honor the fallen New-52 Superman by taking his place in the world and rejoining the Justice League, the League know he isn't 'their' Superman but generally accept him for what he is. Luthor gradually becomes Suspicious but doesn't have all the pieces to deduce the full truth to who and what this Superman really is.
Come Action Comics #976 Mr Mxyzptlk has taken the family out of time and space and this leads to the reappearance of the deceased New-52 Superman and Lois, who to help defeat the Imp willingly merge their essences with their 'original' selves thereby leading by issues end to some metaphysical act of mutual will and Superman-ness that rewrites reality in a way that merges their histories. So come the next two issues we learn the revised history of Superman, as feeling uneasy and vaguely haunted he takes a trip to his Fortress to re-examine the records there of his life's story to date. It is clear that for these initial two issues he has the faint awareness that his history has been revised, but that feeling gradually vanishes as the new reality takes hold and business calls...

What we know thanks to Action #977 & 978 is that his early years are very much that seen in Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's Secret Origin series, the key difference being that, as in the early New-52, Ma and Pa Kent died on the night of Clark's Prom. Lex Luthor was Clark's Friend/enemy in Smallville. He first accesses his full powers when he is forced to save Lane from a Tornado (as in Smallville television series). Wearing his classic costume ( with trunks)he first debuts as Superman in Metropolis when forced into action saving Lois from a fall from the Daily Planet helicopter etc, this scene with Lois naming him, along with other things, also strongly implies he was never Superboy. We watch as he proposes to Lois and reveals his secret (taken directly from Superman #50 and Action #66.. err??!), then flash forward to his battle with Doomsday (Superman #75 etc) and his ressurection - we see Coast City destroyed and his take-down of Cyborg-Superman, interestingly Kon-el isn't pictured here however, adding substance to the idea that he debuted much much later and in line with the New-52 timeframe rather than The Death of Superman.
We flash forward to the wedding and afterwards at some point Superman has changed his costume to the armoured look of the New-52, Lois announced her pregnancy and simultaneously a story she was working on leads to her being targeted by a terrorist agency, while this threat is ongoing Jon Kent is born, leading to Superman deciding they need to go underground and well away from Metropolis and public scrutiny. This then is the events seen in the 'Lois & Clark' eight issue series as we see the couple in seclusion and a bearded black suited Superman working in the shadows, avoiding all publicity. By the end of that series Jon is old enough to be more independent and events have overtaken the family, a move closer to Metropolis is taken and Hamilton County lies somewhere on the outskirts of the city....

All in all then this is still the pre-flashpoint Superman, his history adjusted somewhat naturally, but all of the best Superman stories you remember from 1986 onwards are essentially still canon. For the most part at least. Though the fly in the ointment has to be the early deaths of Ma and Pa Kent, which compromises and outright jepordises many a fine story, from those late eighties/early 90s years in particular. A great shame, as it seems so unnecessary given the otherwise fine attention to detail and the obvious love shown of the material from that era.


















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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,314



One blooper/mistake I spotted in the Wonder Woman Annual #1 is that Superman is wearing the wrong costume because he's wearing his new costume of today. In those days, Superman was wearing his classic red trunks look not his modern look. Apparently, the Superman writing team failed to communicate this to Greg Rucka when he wrote the Annual.


    Quote:
    It has been my understanding the Superman currently appearing in the books is the pre-Flashpoint version of the character, brought to this universe via some wibbly-wobby-comic-book-science, and having stepped into the shoes of the New 52 Superman who shuffled off to the great beyond. So, the first question is, am I incorrect in that understanding?


Yes and no. At first, the Pre-Flashpoint Superman was flying around the New 52 and the New 52 version of Superman died. However, recently the Pre-Flashpoint Superman merged with the New 52 version and both their histories are now one. Now Superman is THIS universe's Superman who has kept his Pre-Flashpoint history as well as the New 52 history (for the most part, there are a few things no longer canon).


    Quote:
    Second, this story, set in the early days of all the characters, ostensibly features that pre-Flashpoint Superman. So how does that fit with the question above when given a linear timeline, he would not have been operating as Superman when Diana debuted.


See JS's answer on this one.


    Quote:
    Following up from that, who knows there was a Superman, and now a different Superman? And two Loises (Loisi?)? Everyone? Just the Justice League? Select villains? It seems like a pretty big thing to just slip beneath Luthor's radar. What about Lois' family? Does Sam Lane know the Lois Lane trotting around Metropolis isn't "his" daughter?


Before the Pre-Flashpoint Superman merged with his New 52 self, the New 52 Lois died. When she died, she asked the Pre-Flashpoint Lois to take over her life and she was very reluctant to do so. But in the end, she did. Then the Pre-Flashpoint Superman merged with his New 52 self and so did Lois with her New 52 self. Now the whole world believes Lois Lane is THEIR Lois Lane because her history merged with her New 52 self, same as Superman's history did.

So the Lois Lane traveling around Metropolis actually "is" Sam Lane's real daughter. ;\-\)


    Quote:
    (And related to that, in a way, during Johns' run, Superman revealed his identity to Jimmy. And then after I dropped the books, Lois revealed Superman's identity to the world. How has all of that been handled with the "old" Superman taking up the role again?)


See JS's response. But to clarify something, I believe Superman's identity still was exposed to the world and Mxy (who was the fake Clark Kent) still had to fix Superman's identity issues. This was referenced by both Clark and Lois after it happened so that means the story still happened and is still canon.


    Quote:
    And all of this leads me to question the Mr. Oz revelation -- but again, I've not read the issue but I realize this probably wasn't answered there, so consider this rhetorical for now -- but is this pre-Flashpoint Jor-El or New 52 Jor-El?


Geoff Johns Superman: Secret Origin is back in Canon and Oz appears to be that version, but I refuse to believe this because the Jor I know and love would NOT be the version that I've seen recently in Action Comics. That simply isn't him. Too out of character. He's got to be from some alternate reality and Superman's TRUE Dad died on Krypton like he was supposed to.


    Quote:
    Thank you to anyone who can explain to me. While I stand by my decision of dropping the books, I do miss being able to keep up with the ongoing narrative -- and also miss being the guy that could usually answer these questions. I really appreciate your patience. \:\)


Your welcome. \:\-\)





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong.
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omike015 

Mod of Steel

Location: The Bottle City of Kandor
Member Since: Sun Oct 10, 1999
Posts: 4,282


Thank you for your explanation. It was helpful. One point:


    Quote:

      Quote:
      And all of this leads me to question the Mr. Oz revelation -- but again, I've not read the issue but I realize this probably wasn't answered there, so consider this rhetorical for now -- but is this pre-Flashpoint Jor-El or New 52 Jor-El?



    Quote:
    That hasn't been explained yet.


Ah, but if the New 52 Superman/Lois/etc. never happened, then there was no New 52 Jor-El, which would mean this is the pre-Flashpoint Jor-El, the only one who has been. It no longer is a question. Right?




omike015
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omike015 

Mod of Steel

Location: The Bottle City of Kandor
Member Since: Sun Oct 10, 1999
Posts: 4,282


Thank you! Helpful as always.


    Quote:
    All in all then this is still the pre-flashpoint Superman, his history adjusted somewhat naturally, but all of the best Superman stories you remember from 1986 onwards are essentially still canon. For the most part at least. Though the fly in the ointment has to be the early deaths of Ma and Pa Kent, which compromises and outright jepordises many a fine story, from those late eighties/early 90s years in particular. A great shame, as it seems so unnecessary given the otherwise fine attention to detail and the obvious love shown of the material from that era.


It sounds as if, while they got there with a lot more handwaving, the approach is similar to what they did with the Justice League initially after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS: essentially, that the stories published from 1960 to 1986 were all viewed as a basic backstory, albeit with select changes, omittances or surrogates here and there where needed or applicable.




omike015
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"Superman & Batman" - featuring your two favorite heroes in one podcast together
"The Thrilling Adventures of Superman" - a podcast exploring the history and development of the Man of Steel

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omike015 

Mod of Steel

Location: The Bottle City of Kandor
Member Since: Sun Oct 10, 1999
Posts: 4,282



    Quote:
    One blooper/mistake I spotted in the Wonder Woman Annual #1 is that Superman is wearing the wrong costume because he's wearing his new costume of today. In those days, Superman was wearing his classic red trunks look not his modern look. Apparently, the Superman writing team failed to communicate this to Greg Rucka when he wrote the Annual.

Ah! Good to know.

Thanks to you, as well, for the explanation. In the interest of making books more accessible, I wish it were less confusing, but that's another subject.


    Quote:
    Geoff Johns Superman: Secret Origin is back in Canon and Oz appears to be that version, but I refuse to believe this because the Jor I know and love would NOT be the version that I've seen recently in Action Comics. That simply isn't him. Too out of character. He's got to be from some alternate reality and Superman's TRUE Dad died on Krypton like he was supposed to.


I think I will say only, "No comment." ;\)




omike015
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"The Thrilling Adventures of Superman" - a podcast exploring the history and development of the Man of Steel

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JS


Member Since: Thu Oct 29, 2009
Posts: 185


Possibly, however, the fact that Mr. Oz has been appearing since long before Rebirth and witnessed the continuity reboot happen, along with his apparent immunity to Metallo's kryptonite, may suggest that he's a Jor-El from an alternate reality or a lost previous continuity or something similar. Or maybe he is the current Jor-El. We don't know yet.



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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 2,761



    Quote:
    Thank you for your explanation. It was helpful. One point


      Quote:
      Ah, but if the New 52 Superman/Lois/etc. never happened, then there was no New 52 Jor-El, which would mean this is the pre-Flashpoint Jor-El, the only one who has been. It no longer is a question. Right?


    This is probably going to be explained by "Krypton Returns", a four-part story where Superman meets Jor-El and defeats H'El (the best Superman villain in some time), which saves !rypton, albeit momentarily, from destruction. Krypton returns for a brief moment then vanishes, but does not explode. I'm pretty certain DC will tie into the fact that Kryoron returned, and that it probably existed outside of the timeline for however long, to allow for there to be more than one Jor-El. If they decide to go that route.





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omike015 

Mod of Steel

Location: The Bottle City of Kandor
Member Since: Sun Oct 10, 1999
Posts: 4,282



    Quote:
    This is probably going to be explained by "Krypton Returns", a four-part story where Superman meets Jor-El and defeats H'El (the best Superman villain in some time), which saves !rypton, albeit momentarily, from destruction. Krypton returns for a brief moment then vanishes, but does not explode. I'm pretty certain DC will tie into the fact that Kryoron returned, and that it probably existed outside of the timeline for however long, to allow for there to be more than one Jor-El. If they decide to go that route.

I'm having flashbacks to the swerve in the "Return to Krypton" arc from 2001.




omike015
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"The Thrilling Adventures of Superman" - a podcast exploring the history and development of the Man of Steel

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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,695


There were 2 separe Superman in the Flashpoint Universe, a Red and Blue, Red was flashpoint new one, while Blue was the New earth pre flashpoint Superman.

They managed to merge themselves, and the time line seemed to become pretty much pre flashpoint continuity once again.

Jor might be the PC version of himself!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,695


Manhatten seemed to have saved Jor El, so this could even be the PC version of Jor El...

I would have really liked to have seen the final reveal of Oz as actually been E1 PC Superman, who wanted to restore all of his universe to its glory!

Or else Superboy Prime as Time Trapper still, trying to restore his earth prime!


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