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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,852


Within Marvel or at least Thor's corner of Marvel Thor is a bona fide god and Odin is the creator of Earth and humanity. One of Odin's mythological titles was "Lord of Midgard." From at least a religious perspective, gods are usually considered higher beings with authority superseding mortal authority. An reason given for why superheros do not kill or take certain actions is they are not gods. They are not supposed to decide who lives or dies or overrule local governments.

Yet, Thor is a god. He is the son the Earth Mother Gaea and stand to inherit all authority from Odin and Gaea. He is usually respectful of mortal law, but now much does it really apply to him?


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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


Legally speaking....Thor is still bound by mortal laws. Criminal laws are enforceable on all those who "lives or sojourns" in a particular jurisdiction. So, if it's criminal to kill in one territory (any part of the Earth, actually), and Thor kills (assuming it's not one of those circumstances which exempts one's liability, like for example if done in self defense or defense of others), then he is still bound to answer for his actions.  If Thor kills on Asgard, a place not subject to mortal laws, it's theoretically possible he gets away with no legal consequence if his actions are legal in the Realm Eternal, even if considered criminal on Earth. The criminal law to apply is always the one in force where the crime was committed. If Thor commits a crime on Earth, he is bound by the laws of man, just like everyone else who lives or sojourns on Earth.

As for enforcement...that's a whole another issue, which has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of his actions. Technically Batman is guilty of vigilante activities, but James Gordon do not go after him because he feels Gotham needs him (and they do). But technically Batman breaks the law every night.



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ThorTheMightiestAvenger


Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 526



I think Osborne may have taken it away, but Thor and the Asgardians were given diplomatic immunity to make a compromise





FOR ASGARD!!!
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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


Diplomatic Relations would usually entail that both sovereign states maintain an embassy on each others territory. As an example, Asgard should have an embassy on US soil, and the United States should likewise have an embassy on Asgard. Which of course there isn't.

Asgard should enter into treaties with other sovereign states, which there is none.

There must also be "Reciprocity" among sovereign states. So, if the US extend diplomatic immunity to the head of state of Asgard, then Asgard should also extend diplomatic immunity to the President of the United States.

Also, diplomatic immunity cannot be extended to all Asgardians. They are usually given only to high ranking officials of certain sovereign states, such as the head of state, ambassador, maybe consul, diplomats...etc.

And I cannot stress this enough, because this is the subject of most misconceptions regarding this concept....diplomatic immunity does not mean that those enjoying this privilege can do whatever they want without any repercussions.  They are still subject to the laws of other juristictions, they are just extended "freedom from arrest" and are guaranteed safe passage out of the country. So, if the ambassador from Asgard went on a killing spree, does that mean he is not subject to criminal law? No. He is still technically guilty, but due to his diplomatic immunity, he cannot be detained and imprisoned. However, he can be expelled from the country. 




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Thor64


Member Since: Sun Nov 05, 2017
Posts: 215



    Quote:
    Legally speaking....Thor is still bound by mortal laws. Criminal laws are enforceable on all those who "lives or sojourns" in a particular jurisdiction. So, if it's criminal to kill in one territory (any part of the Earth, actually), and Thor kills (assuming it's not one of those circumstances which exempts one's liability, like for example if done in self defense or defense of others), then he is still bound to answer for his actions.  If Thor kills on Asgard, a place not subject to mortal laws, it's theoretically possible he gets away with no legal consequence if his actions are legal in the Realm Eternal, even if considered criminal on Earth. The criminal law to apply is always the one in force where the crime was committed. If Thor commits a crime on Earth, he is bound by the laws of man, just like everyone else who lives or sojourns on Earth.

    As for enforcement...that's a whole another issue, which has nothing to do with the legality or illegality of his actions. Technically Batman is guilty of vigilante activities, but James Gordon do not go after him because he feels Gotham needs him (and they do). But technically Batman breaks the law every night.


A god....bound by mortal law?

Sh'yeah, right. Good luck with that.....



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ThorTheMightiestAvenger


Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 526



The diplomatic immunity was a result of Asgard itself becoming an embassy.
Asgard personally saw to it that two mortals (Americans) represented Midgard in the Council of Realms. Not quite an embassy on Asgard, but close. So there’s technically no embassy on Asgard, there’s also no reason to put an embassy in an embassy.
Asgard has entered several treaties with several realms.
Theoretically there is reciprocity as Asgard has had no reason to be angry at someone with diplomatic immunity in the US, but if it came to it they would probably do what they wanted.
I may have misspoken when I said all Asgardians get diplomatic immunity since Stark says “You would get diplomatic immunity” to Thor so he may have been speaking about Thor or Thor and his people.
Yes he would still be guilty of crimes, but he couldn’t be arrested, charged, or prosecuted. So he’s kind of not bound to the law. Sure, they could expel him from the country, but he’s got the whole universe. Not much of a punishment





FOR ASGARD!!!
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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369




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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


Diplomatic immunity just guarantees that certain high ranking officials will not be harassed, investigated on, detained or jailed, and they are assured safe passage back to their own country. It's not a blanket exemption from criminal liability.

Embassies on the other hand are deemed extensions of the territories of their counties, so the host country cannot exercise juristiction over the embassy of a certain country because they are just respecting the territorial sovereignty of another. For example, the Embassy of the US in Germany, the German government is powerless to arrest someone inside the embassy of the US because that area is deemed to be an extension of American territory.

If Asgard, while on Earth is given an embassy status, that just means the UN is respecting the territorial sovereignty of Asgard. Not that they are given diplomatic immunity per se. Regarding what Tony Stark said to Thor, I do not know what kind of clout he has that he can assure Thor such privilege that requires the consent of either the host country (which is the US, and any treaty or agreement can only be entered into by the Executive branch of government...aka the President, subject to Legislative approval in certain cases), or by the United Nations (which requires the concurrence of member states).



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ThorTheMightiestAvenger


Member Since: Wed Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 526



Or he was able to get someone else in power to do it. Either way, I’m not thinking he wants to lie to Thor after the whooping Thor just gave him. Stark explicitly promises diplomatic immunity AND Asgard becoming an embassy





FOR ASGARD!!!
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Thor64


Member Since: Sun Nov 05, 2017
Posts: 215



    Quote:

    Or he was able to get someone else in power to do it. Either way, I’m not thinking he wants to lie to Thor after the whooping Thor just gave him. Stark explicitly promises diplomatic immunity AND Asgard becoming an embassy


Yup.

It was either this, or making an enemy of the most powerful mythological god of all time.

It would not be smart at all to take option 2.


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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,852


For Marvel Odin creating Earth and humanity is a factual truth.  In the past at least, Odin has been considered the ruler of Earth.   As crown prince, Thor as at least some authority derived from him and stands to inherit all of it.

Then you have Gaea who IS the Earth personified.  Thor is her child and at least shown to be one of her favorite children.  Given how she was here before anything else and infused her life in all things and has guided life since.  She is higher up on the order of things than Thor ans possibly Odin.

Finally, you have Thor who at times has been considered an embodiment of all storms on Earth.  

Or is this a matter of how enforceable laws are?  Stark tried forcing Thor and Asgard to register for the SHRA only to back down when he realized Thor  was too powerful.  So he tried to find a politically expedient compromise.



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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


No. 

The origin of Marvel Asgard vary.  But I do know that all the different governments in the Marvel Universe do not recognize Odin as man's creator, and they do not worship Gaea. They are regarded as the stuffs of myths and legends. Sure,they exist in the Marvel Universe, but Odin is not even widely known, let alone accepted as Earth's ruler.



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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


The head of SHIELD acts under the supervision of the UN, and has no power to grant such diplomatic privilege.


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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369


Before the fight, Tony Stark was acting like they can somehow impose the Registration Act on Thor. You do not treat a sovereign State like that. Which means the US government do not really see Asgard as a separate government.

Thor got angry and kicked the snot out of Tony Stark.

Then Tony Stark "proposed" a "compromise"....he said - "if we treat Asgard as a separate entity, like a diplomatic mission or embassy, then it's not officially United States territory -- especially since it's technically hovering eight feet above US Territory. That would put Asgard and anyone who lives there outside the jurisdiction of the Registration Act, and give you diplomatic immunity....An approach along those lines would make sure my SUPERIORS DON'T LOSE FACE, and that would be necessary to sell this. How's that work for you?"

First of all, it's not an official act. Tony Stark was just proposing a possible compromise.

Second, Stark himself said that he would need to sell (or convince) his SUPERIORS to treat Asgard as an embassy. He doesn't have the authority to outright grant embassy status to Asgard, nor to grant diplomatic immunity.

Third, this line "especially since it's technically hovering eight feet above US territory"....tells me JMS has no proper grasp of how sovereign territory works. The territorial sovereignty of a country do not end over eight feet above the ground. The territory of a country comprises all land, bodies of water, and the air space within its territorial jurisdiction.

And at the end of the issue, they were still monitoring Asgard. One of Stark's aides even ask what should they do to Heimdall. Stark just said "let it go". Not because he recognise that Asgard is an embassy, he just didn't want further confrontatiom with Thor....and later on, in SIEGE, didn't SHIELD attack Asgard? Sounds like they do not treat Asgard as a separate sovereign territory of another 



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seeker


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,852


A citizen of the United States can refuse to recognize the American government having any authority over him and refuse to pay his taxes.  That still will not prevent him from being thrown in prison for tax evasion.

Why should it matter to Odin, Thor or Gaea if human governments recognize them or not?  They were here first.  Odin creating humans may not be widely accepted, but it does not make it untrue.  And as far as the Thor marvel mythos is concerned it is true.  Why should Gaea tolerate humans polluting the Earth because human laws allow it or mess with human legal systems to try and get them to stop?  She is the Earth.  In a sense, they are poisoning her.



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jazzbass6


Member Since: Tue Sep 30, 2014
Posts: 667


Thor owned the property Asgard floated above. He bought it in issue 2.


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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,844


Hard to say, as much as any sort of alien thing I guess? He has helped Earth a fair bit and at times is a diplomat from Asgard but formally it is hard to say.

He respects mortal law but it has not applied to him much of the time because he is not really breaking it outside of events that are saving things and causing collateral damage.






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skrayper


Member Since: Mon Jul 24, 2017
Posts: 70



    Quote:
    A citizen of the United States can refuse to recognize the American government having any authority over him and refuse to pay his taxes.  That still will not prevent him from being thrown in prison for tax evasion.



    Quote:
    Why should it matter to Odin, Thor or Gaea if human governments recognize them or not?  They were here first.  Odin creating humans may not be widely accepted, but it does not make it untrue.  And as far as the Thor marvel mythos is concerned it is true.  Why should Gaea tolerate humans polluting the Earth because human laws allow it or mess with human legal systems to try and get them to stop?  She is the Earth.  In a sense, they are poisoning her.



Your points don't really work.  You're referring to acting above the law, not if you are bound by it.  An individual who is not an American citizen who kills while visiting America is bound by those laws; but on the flip side, if they are not employed in America they are not bound to pay income taxes while visiting.

Thor, for example, cannot just walk into your house without breaking trespassing laws.  It doesn't matter if he was "here first" - it's still your home, and your property.  Now, you may not be able to DO anything about it (he is Thor, after all), but he is still breaking the law.  Walking around and telling people you're the God of Thunder doesn't mean you can take a dump on the White House lawn without someone at least trying to arrest you.

I mean, think about this logic applied to Loki.  He can wander around, murdering as many humans as he wants all the time shouting, "Was here first, jerks!"?  Or Hela?  We're still allowed to stop them too.

"I was here first" isn't a valid legal argument for a lot of laws.



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skrayper


Member Since: Mon Jul 24, 2017
Posts: 70



    Quote:
    A citizen of the United States can refuse to recognize the American government having any authority over him and refuse to pay his taxes.  That still will not prevent him from being thrown in prison for tax evasion.



    Quote:
    Why should it matter to Odin, Thor or Gaea if human governments recognize them or not?  They were here first.  Odin creating humans may not be widely accepted, but it does not make it untrue.  And as far as the Thor marvel mythos is concerned it is true.  Why should Gaea tolerate humans polluting the Earth because human laws allow it or mess with human legal systems to try and get them to stop?  She is the Earth.  In a sense, they are poisoning her.



Your points don't really work.  You're referring to acting above the law, not if you are bound by it.  An individual who is not an American citizen who kills while visiting America is bound by those laws; but on the flip side, if they are not employed in America they are not bound to pay income taxes while visiting.

Thor, for example, cannot just walk into your house without breaking trespassing laws.  It doesn't matter if he was "here first" - it's still your home, and your property.  Now, you may not be able to DO anything about it (he is Thor, after all), but he is still breaking the law.  Walking around and telling people you're the God of Thunder doesn't mean you can take a dump on the White House lawn without someone at least trying to arrest you.

I mean, think about this logic applied to Loki.  He can wander around, murdering as many humans as he wants all the time shouting, "Was here first, jerks!"?  Or Hela?  We're still allowed to stop them too.

"I was here first" isn't a valid legal argument for a lot of laws.



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skrayper


Member Since: Mon Jul 24, 2017
Posts: 70



    Quote:
    Thor owned the property Asgard floated above. He bought it in issue 2.


Foreign nationals owning property in the US doesn't make that land immune to laws in the US.  They're still under the same jurisdiction as if you bought a house.



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jazzbass6


Member Since: Tue Sep 30, 2014
Posts: 667


My point was that he bought the land before Tony's "offer".


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bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369




Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.84 on Linux
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369




Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.84 on Linux
bouken red


Member Since: Sat Jul 15, 2017
Posts: 369




Posted with Google Chrome 62.0.3202.84 on Linux

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