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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,914


As she appears over on the DC page as one?


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Ancient One

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,046



    Quote:
    As she appears over on the DC page as one?


Historically, no. In the first fifty years of her publishing history she was never shown to be sexually attracted to women. Just the opposite, in fact. She only ever had eyes for Steve Trevor, at least until COIE.

But today's creators have no respect for continuity or the history of characters, so in today's comics, she's probably bisexual.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 18,914


Which would be news to both Kal and Steve!


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


She's lived in a place full of women all of her life. Why wouldn't she have found love with another woman? And it's Greg Rucka. Rucka in on par with Perez in how much he respect history and continuity of Wonder Woman. Revealing that Wonder Woman is bisexual is fine and it's pretty much in line with a lot of Wonder Woman's crazy history of magical twins and fighting time-traveling Nazis.

- l.k.


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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,787



Yeah...Wonder Woman being bi and it being fine makes about as much sense as Superman being gay and having that be fine. These "women" didn't always live on that island. They grew up around men, so at least most of them would be straight. Chances are, Diana would be as well as pickings would be slim. If Rucka really respected Diana's history, he wouldn't have done this to the character when, for decades, she was not like this at all.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,156


Diana has never been shown to be attracted to women. In fact, when Steve arrives, it's surprising that no other woman is attracted to him at all, besides Diana. I always thought that the Amazons had evolved past that physical, sexual need, or else Paradise Island would be rife with many of the same ailments as Man's World.

There's a fair amount of hypocrisy in how Themyscira is approached, as I'm certain if the situation was reversed, and a woman showed up on an island of enlightened men, readers would guffaw if not one of them was attracted to her. It would make sense that a man is attracted to a woman, but the converse? Many don't seem to believe that women are attracted to men, and deeply at that.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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bd2999


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 16,135



    Quote:
    As she appears over on the DC page as one?


Not that I am aware. She is more than likely bisexual but not entirely clear. She has usually been shown as heterosexual.




Look Raist bunnies...
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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


She is shown to have a strong relationship with another Amazon and that Amazon is shown to be jealous of Steve Trevor. We also know that, when asked about her relationships on the island, that she mentions that amazon as one of the people she cares about the most.

But that's like a bit of a whole thing that brings Diana back into the larger mythos of her origin and her history. It kind of does away with her parentage from Zeus and has great little twists like having her without powers when she competes, but then gains her powers once she's in the man's world. That's pretty cool and well in keeping with Diana's history and sense of fair play.

It also does away with the revelations in Chang's run that the Amazons must have raped sailors and killed male children, and the possibility that Diana is a demi-god. Both kind of diminish the character to a degree.

I bring this stuff to make the point that Rucka took the approach of repairing from Chang's run (we don't know if she's a demi-god, but she's definitely not been home since she came to the man's world), updating (the story of the contest and the subtle revelation that Diana might have had a girlfriend), and answering the questions of Diana's past by giving future story-points for writers to use. I think he did a brilliant job of trying to do all of that while opening up the character for new writers to tackle.

I like that he puts Diana's girlfriend as a potential plot-point, and it feels so in keeping and updating Marston's idea about Wonder Woman and creating her in a fresh way like Perez's run in the 80s.

- l.k.


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


"There's a fair amount of hypocrisy in how Themyscira is approached, as I'm certain if the situation was reversed, and a woman showed up on an island of enlightened men, readers would guffaw if not one of them was attracted to her. It would make sense that a man is attracted to a woman, but the converse? Many don't seem to believe that women are attracted to men, and deeply at that. "

I don't know about guffaw, but it was shown that Achilles Warkiller and his men weren't necessarily, as we would put it today, straight. Achilles married the Amazon queen for political reasons, but eventually went with the reincarnation of his companion, Patroclus.

- l.k.


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christian




Actually, it doesn't make sense at all. If the women on Paradise Island were once part of man's world, and that seems to have been the consistent portrayal, then most of the Amazons are heterosexual. Since, homosexuality runs at about 10% in the broader population. Because the Amazons were granted immortality, and existence apart from men, the implication is that part of the enchantment involves taking all sexual feelings away from the Amazons, to make eternal life apart from men bearable. Diana is the exception, since she was created much later, from her mother's great desire to have a child. But not a husband. The Amazons aren't homosexual, or bisexual. They're non-sexual, in the pursuit of a higher existence. Carnality is a male failing, in their eyes. Diana wasn't part of the original enchantment, so she's unaffected. Any love she has for her sisters is a platonic, familial love. And any portrayal of Diana or the Amazons as lesbian is more to excite young, rapacious males on the one hand, and satisfy the demands of the SJWs on the other. But, logical sense? No, not at all.


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


We are talking about women who follow the Greek Gods and have a specifically greek outlook. The greeks did have Thiasoi in Lesbos where you had women learning of art and culture through other women, as well as lovemaking. You had Sparta that believed in female to female relationships as a form of sport and athletics. In Plato's symposium, he does talk about "women who do not care for relations with men. Even in Amazon culture, you had a vase depicting a female huntress giving a love gift to the queen of the Amazons.

Check out the link I provided. There's also Perez giving us the rundown on homosexuality, masturbation and divinity as it pertains to Amazons, in a specifically roundabout way.

I believe tehre's enough background for Wonder Woman to have had relations with a woman, considering her greek cultural background. Also, homosexuality wasn't really a thing in ancient greek culture...it was just a part of life, which is probably how Wonder Woman sees it: It does not matter if she loves a man or a woman, just that she loves.

That reading to me is better than Diana not being attracted or loving other people until Steve. That part always felt wrong to me...too Lilo from 5th Element to be interesting.

- l.k.


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christian




I'm not arguing that homosexuality wasn't accepted by ancient Greek culture, it was. I'm saying that any enchantment that grants immortality and separation from men would have to involve removing sexual desire from the recipients, since an eternity wanting what you can't have would be sadistic. And accepting homosexuality or not, there's no way that Greek culture was majority homosexual. Consequently, it's reasonable to argue that the Gods suppressed the Amazons' sexual desires.


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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,156





    Quote:
    I don't know about guffaw, but it was shown that Achilles Warkiller and his men weren't necessarily, as we would put it today, straight. Achilles married the Amazon queen for political reasons, but eventually went with the reincarnation of his companion, Patroclus.


Canonical relationships aside, and that canon is dependent on zeitgeist, you'd expect some of the men to show interest.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


But it didn't. At least not in Perez continuity it didn't. We don't know what enhancement they have now, but it didn't do it here because WW had a relationship with another amazon. And it wouldn't if we're talking about a greek pantheon. So I'm not sure where this is coming from.

- l.k.


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


Sure, but there's also the context that all of these women have been raped or abused by men. You also have the stuff from Perez where all of them were reincarnations of women who were killed by men. So one would think there would be issues with how these women saw men and relationships. Especially with Hercules' men raping and abusing them too. They have bracelets to remind them of the chains that Hercules put them in. They have a lasso of truth that is remiscent of the chains they were put in.

I can see a lot of the Amazons having issues with men, with Diana being the exception because she had never been enslaved.


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christian




Well, you've changed your argument a little. When I first replied to you, the title of your post was "C'mon guys, it makes the most sense." So, the implication is that you weren't talking about what a writer came up with, but what would make logical sense if an island of women were to exist. So, it doesn't matter what any of Wonder Woman's various writers have done, because that's just their opinion. And I stated that I tend to think that any inclusion of lesbianism by the writers is to excite young men(who get off on the idea of beautiful women having sex with each other), and to mollify social justice warriors, who demand more diveristy.

But, if it was your intention to point out what makes the most sense, then my counter point was that an island of asexual women would be the most logical representation. Since most of those women would be heterosexual, and it would be sadistic of the Gods to grant the women immortality, but remove them from those they love and desire. And that would fit nicely with Hippolyta's attitude that she desperately wanted a child, but not a husband. It would also explain why all the other Amazons don't seem perturbed by the lack of men. And finally, it would be in keeping with the notion that the Amazons have an ideology that's far removed from the rest of mankind in the pursuit of higher existence.

But, if any of the women are portrayed as lesbian, then it implies that most of the Amazons would be heterosexual. Yet, they demonstrate no interest in sex, or any kind of relationship, with men. And that makes no logical sense at all.




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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,156



    Quote:
    Sure, but there's also the context that all of these women have been raped or abused by men. You also have the stuff from Perez where all of them were reincarnations of women who were killed by men. So one would think there would be issues with how these women saw men and relationships. Especially with Hercules' men raping and abusing them too. They have bracelets to remind them of the chains that Hercules put them in. They have a lasso of truth that is remiscent of the chains they were put in.


The situations notwithstanding, women, and men for that matter, are still shown to be attracted to the opposite sex. What's more, the implication would be that trauma induces sexuality, as opposed to it being a naturally, organic happening. Hypolyta was humiliated by Heracles, yet later in the series, forgave him and had a relationship with him.



    Quote:
    I can see a lot of the Amazons having issues with men, with Diana being the exception because she had never been enslaved.


That's the modern take, women who live together must have issues with men, even though they have had no dealings with men for thousands of years. That's hardly enlightened. No, it's misandry, or at least, an unfair dislike of all men based on the actions of a few.





R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


In Earth One: Wonder Woman, we have an Amazon society that has built extravagant rituals centered around bondage and chains that recreate and their bondage from Hercules as a way to show justice and love within their courts. In the Perez run, you have all of these women who were doubly scarred by men (at least those that follow Hippolyta)...once when they were killed by men and again when Hercules and his troops drugged and raped them. They were defined by an endless war to keep the doorway to hell closed. The Banas of Antiope's tribe were different. They had inter-married, but they still had a very distancing culture from men. In the current run, we have some conflicting ideas as to what is and is not canon, but we do know that the Amazons are a warrior culture that either raped men for only reproduction (which is the original interpretation of Amazons) or were traditionally immortal, fighting to always keep Ares from escaping and keeping everyone out. So that constant state of war is very similar to Perez's interpretation.

I understand that Asexuality seems to be there, but there also does seem to be a degree of lesbianism there too. It was there with Perez's run with Hippolyta and Philippus' relationship. I really don't see asexuality there. If anything, lesbianism seem to be there in the text.

I still don't understand why asexuality would be more relevant than lesbianism? And why wouldn't the writers ideas matter, they're writing the book. Shouldn't there be credence to that work?

As far as a "higher existence" is concerned...they're more interested in keeping the evils of the world at bay, right? I mean, in Perez's run, they are charged with keeping the dooms' doorway closed. In the current run, they're charged with keeping Ares at bay. In the silver age, they were charged by the Gods to send out a champion to keep the world's evils at bay.

- little kon-el


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


The idea of amazons being attracted to the opposite sex and the amazons acting on being attracted are different. I mean, we rarely get other Amazons talking about it. They're whole social group is around 1) stopping evil from escaping and 2) being with their sword sisters. It isn't an on-off switch. It's a spectrum. I know lesbians who came out later in life. I've known lesbians who have been attracted to men, but who prefer women.

As far as these women being enlightened, I don't think they are meant to be enlightened. They're meant to be Amazons warrior women, and they've shown in the past to be blinded by avarace, by rage, by love and by pride. And yes, while it might be unfair to not like men because of what some men have done, it isn't out the question either...considering they wake up every day with bracelets that remind them of how men have mistreated them.


- l.k.


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christian




Hmm, we seem to be debating at cross purposes. I thought you were originally arguing that your view was what SHOULD be the representation of the Amazons in the comics, not what the various writers have actually done. But it seems that you're discussing the actual representation. And I can't really comment, since the Perez run was the only Wonder Woman comics I ever read.

My argument was what I thought should have been the Amazon depiction. What would make the most sense if I was writing the title. From that perspective, asexuality makes more sense to me, than the notion that a heretofore predominantly heterosexual group of women would suddenly become lesbian in the absence of men. While some homosexuality can be explained by environmental circumstances, most people agree that homosexuals are generally born that way. So, I don't see many women converting, even in a fictional scenario. Having left sexuality behind sounds like a better narrative to me, especially since these women are immortal, and don't need to procreate.


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little kon-el


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 682


I just realized too that we're talking at crossed purposes. Sorry about that.

- l.k.


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liheibao


Member Since: Thu May 07, 2009
Posts: 3,156



    Quote:
    The idea of amazons being attracted to the opposite sex and the amazons acting on being attracted are different. I mean, we rarely get other Amazons talking about it. They're whole social group is around 1) stopping evil from escaping and 2) being with their sword sisters. It isn't an on-off switch. It's a spectrum. I know lesbians who came out later in life. I've known lesbians who have been attracted to men, but who prefer women.


We didn't see Amazons speaking on being attracted to men. We have had plenty of the converse. It doesn't have anything to do with being a lesbian, or when one comes out, but rather the inconsistency in writing that has been embraced in the name of being "progressive".


    Quote:
    As far as these women being enlightened, I don't think they are meant to be enlightened. They're meant to be Amazons warrior women, and they've shown in the past to be blinded by avarace, by rage, by love and by pride. And yes, while it might be unfair to not like men because of what some men have done, it isn't out the question either...considering they wake up every day with bracelets that remind them of how men have mistreated them.


That's not the history. Paradise Island only became a place of constant battle in the last few years. It was a place of advanced science, art, music, and thought. Now, it's about fighting all the time for no bloody good reason.




R. I. P. Kato: A good friend to one who has so few
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