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seito




- By some means Jean Grey returns to the MU
- Jean Grey and Emma Frost go toe to toe
- Jean Grey will defeat Emma after a valiant effort from the White Queen
- However, Emma and Cyclops will remain together
- Jean and Wolverine will finally become an official couple
- Jean will give birth to Wolverine's child
- The child will be another Omega level mutant.
- The rational for the child's power will be unlimited psionics in a resistant body capable of housing the power via Wolverine's healing factor.

Possible? Disappointing? Alternatives?



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Mr Sinister






Even in Claremont's own X-Men Forever, where he had a blank slate to throw the two of them together, he didn't. The pairing has no long-term legs.




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Nitz the Bloody






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Arsenal 

Strike Team Leader

Location: Tucson, AZ
Member Since: Sat Nov 24, 2001
Posts: 1,711


Whoa, wait... hold on one second.


    Quote:
    - Jean will give birth to Wolverine's child
    - The child will be another Omega level mutant.


I think Wolverine has enough kids running around right now, that the last thing we need is another one. Plus, if and when Jean comes back, it's highly unlikely that after all that time away, she's going to be sidelined with a pregnancy.

As for the rest of that "map", the Emma vs. Jean thing and the continuation of the Scott/Emma relationship might happen, but the rest of that stuff just seems... implausible.







Cannibalism? Racism? Dude, that's not for us. Those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington. We're just here to eat some dude!

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seito




this "road map" is not an endorsement of any story arc; simply what I believe will happen given the current editorial staff. It's based on certain trends:

1) Emma Frost is now too popular a character to be sidelined by Jean. I would even dare to argue that Emma is a more popular character than Jean.

2) Wolverine remains the most popular x-man. His relationship with Jean was expanded in film and I think it's logical to assume that they'll get together post her return. Didn't Morrison examine their relationship a little when they were in orbit or something?

3)In marvel, characterization is power level. Emma's been boosted, Vulcan is here to stay. Elixir is in a major book.

4)Kids are in. X-23, Stepford Cuckoos, and Daken.


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Arsenal 

Strike Team Leader

Location: Tucson, AZ
Member Since: Sat Nov 24, 2001
Posts: 1,711



    Quote:
    this "road map" is not an endorsement of any story arc; simply what I believe will happen given the current editorial staff.


Problem there is you're assuming that even if they did plan stuff like this that far ahead that they'll still be around that far in the future to see this stuff pan out. Not likely on either count. I have no personal qualms with the current editorial staff, but it's foolhardy to assume they'll be there forever.


    Quote:
    1) Emma Frost is now too popular a character to be sidelined by Jean. I would even dare to argue that Emma is a more popular character than Jean.


I used to consider myself a fan of Emma prior to her overexposure in the comics. But even in my days of being in her fanclub, I would still be honest enough to admit she'll never have the popularity Jean had/still has. Not only does Emma not have nearly the mainstream media exposure Jean has, there's also the nostalgia factor. It's a powerful thing.


    Quote:
    2) Wolverine remains the most popular x-man.


I would agree with this. But his popularity doesn't have anything to do with the subject of his relationships with the opposite sex.


    Quote:
    His relationship with Jean was expanded in film and I think it's logical to assume that they'll get together post her return. Didn't Morrison examine their relationship a little when they were in orbit or something?


He did, IIRC. BUT... Do not confuse sexual tension and good on-screen chemistry with the ability to maintain a long-term relationship, much less one that would involve a child.

I have no problem with hooking them up in the short term. But like Scott and Emma, it is not a pairing built to last. They are a coupling made for a steamy series of one-night-stands that will likely come to an end when Logan kills someone right in front of her, reminding Jean that he is a bloodthirsty animal that she will never be able to tame. He, in a fit of self-loathing, will push her away emotionally.

And the odds of him knocking her up are astronomically slim.


    Quote:
    3)In marvel, characterization is power level.


No. Power level is a crutch relied on by Battle Board posters. Characterization is making a character interesting. Saying Jean and Logan's kid is an omega level mutant doesn't make it any more interesting than if it was a powerless and hairy ginger.


    Quote:
    Emma's been boosted, Vulcan is here to stay. Elixir is in a major book.


All true. And none of that has anything to do with Jean and Logan having a kid being a good idea, regardless of if the kid has powers or not.


    Quote:
    4)Kids are in. X-23, Stepford Cuckoos, and Daken.


Correction: Teens and young adults are in. Babies have *NEVER* been in. This is why anytime a baby is born in comics, 99% of the time, they do whatever they can to have the kid age past the newborn stage.

And again, with X-23 and Daken running around, shoehorning in some third little brat is wasting space. Actually, a fourth kid considering there's another Logan jr. in the Savage Land. So how about they find something for his current family to do before introducing another?




Cannibalism? Racism? Dude, that's not for us. Those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington. We're just here to eat some dude!

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Evil G:DR




The more time goes by, the more and more I'm convinced that Logie should not have, and does not need, a regular ongoing love-interest, since he's gotten by just fine without one ever since Mariko died in 1992. Can anyone seriously imagine him settling down with anyone?

And fiction is so absolutely littered with "unrequited love" stories that turned to absolute crap when they became "requited" that there's no sane reason to repeat that mistake out of a sense of "they said it couldn't be done, let's prove them wrong".

That, and I'm a firm believer that Scott and Jean were one of the classic Marvel romances that absolutely should not have been messed with in the first place. Putting Jean and Logie together would just be adding to the problem, not fixing it.


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Zodiac Pope




1) Emma Frost is now too popular a character to be sidelined by Jean. I would even dare to argue that Emma is a more popular character than Jean.

Maybe for people like fraction who think Emma is Omega but Emma is no where near as popular as Jean and i doubt ever will be. Jean if she so desires will put Emma in her place if when she returns.


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seito





    Quote:

      Quote:
      this "road map" is not an endorsement of any story arc; simply what I believe will happen given the current editorial staff.



    Quote:
    Problem there is you're assuming that even if they did plan stuff like this that far ahead that they'll still be around that far in the future to see this stuff pan out. Not likely on either count. I have no personal qualms with the current editorial staff, but it's foolhardy to assume they'll be there forever.


True. I should have wrote editorial "direction." A lot of my predictions are based on perceived popularity, sales potential and trends visible in comics writ-large. I would argue that these are editorial considerations that won't change with staff.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      1) Emma Frost is now too popular a character to be sidelined by Jean. I would even dare to argue that Emma is a more popular character than Jean.



    Quote:
    I used to consider myself a fan of Emma prior to her overexposure in the comics. But even in my days of being in her fanclub, I would still be honest enough to admit she'll never have the popularity Jean had/still has. Not only does Emma not have nearly the mainstream media exposure Jean has, there's also the nostalgia factor. It's a powerful thing.


Here's why I disagree: if you take the x-universe as a set of structures filled by characters, the x-universe has never been under girded by Jean Grey the way that Emma Frost does today. The editorial staff has taken a page from Wolverine's playbook retroactively linking her to many marvel heavy-hitters(Namor and Iron Man in specific.) Moreover, Emma has come to serve many roles and actions formerly filled by Magneto and Xavier. Arguably, she is a more pragmatic character that is more in line with modern readers and which characters like Xavier could never recreate for fear of being written "out of character."

Finally, as much as I'm loathed to write this, Emma is far more emancipated character than Jean was. Jean, pessimistically analyzed, reached her peak in a "good girl gone crazy b#*ch" storyline. Emma on the other hand, is an unapologetic, uncompromising woman. Unlike Jean, she's never been written to be afraid of her potential. These type of female characters, I believe, will stay and flourish in popular culture. And to be clear, I think there's more than enough room for both Jean and Emma. Emma Frost represents an "edgier" but necessary character that Jean would be hard pressed to emulate simply because of the "nostalgic factor."


    Quote:

      Quote:
      2) Wolverine remains the most popular x-man.



    Quote:
    I would agree with this. But his popularity doesn't have anything to do with the subject of his relationships with the opposite sex.


Two popular characters who have had previous romantic involvement and would be single, at the same time, for the first time. Honestly, when has Jean not been a part of "scott and jean?"


    Quote:

      Quote:
      His relationship with Jean was expanded in film and I think it's logical to assume that they'll get together post her return. Didn't Morrison examine their relationship a little when they were in orbit or something?



    Quote:
    He did, IIRC. BUT... Do not confuse sexual tension and good on-screen chemistry with the ability to maintain a long-term relationship, much less one that would involve a child.


I'm not saying anything long term. How do you define that in comic books? Everything that I am positing above could be accomplished in the same amount of time that Emma and Scott have been together.



    Quote:
    I have no problem with hooking them up in the short term. But like Scott and Emma, it is not a pairing built to last. They are a coupling made for a steamy series of one-night-stands that will likely come to an end when Logan kills someone right in front of her, reminding Jean that he is a bloodthirsty animal that she will never be able to tame. He, in a fit of self-loathing, will push her away emotionally.


yeah i don't like wolverine either.


    Quote:
    And the odds of him knocking her up are astronomically slim.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      3)In marvel, characterization is power level.



    Quote:
    No. Power level is a crutch relied on by Battle Board posters. Characterization is making a character interesting. Saying Jean and Logan's kid is an omega level mutant doesn't make it any more interesting than if it was a powerless and hairy ginger.


again, I'm not saying it's correct or particularly interesting. I am saying it's a trend. Consider how seminal Iceman's possession by Emma was to his character development. Even a large part of Jean's popularity is directly attributed to her power upgrade.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Emma's been boosted, Vulcan is here to stay. Elixir is in a major book.



    Quote:
    All true. And none of that has anything to do with Jean and Logan having a kid being a good idea, regardless of if the kid has powers or not.


again, never said "good idea."


    Quote:

      Quote:
      4)Kids are in. X-23, Stepford Cuckoos, and Daken.



    Quote:
    Correction: Teens and young adults are in. Babies have *NEVER* been in. This is why anytime a baby is born in comics, 99% of the time, they do whatever they can to have the kid age past the newborn stage.


Would progeny have been a better word then?


    Quote:
    And again, with X-23 and Daken running around, shoehorning in some third little brat is wasting space. Actually, a fourth kid considering there's another Logan jr. in the Savage Land. So how about they find something for his current family to do before introducing another?


Naw. At Marvel new is always better.



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yikes




Let's see how Jean Grey does WITHOUT being the romantic interest for a while. Keep her single.


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The Black Guardian 

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,320



    Quote:
    1) Emma Frost is now too popular a character to be sidelined by Jean. I would even dare to argue that Emma is a more popular character than Jean.

I dunno. I've already noticed a backlash beginning.

    Quote:
    3)In marvel, characterization is power level. Emma's been boosted, Vulcan is here to stay. Elixir is in a major book.

Tell that to Gamesmaster, the omnipath, capable of reading all of the minds on Earth at once.
Tell that to Hyperstorm, son of Franklin Richards and Rachel Summers, who went toe-to-toe with Galactus.
It actually tends runs the opposite way-- the higher the power level, the less characterization.
And Vulcan's already gone.
And Elixir spends most of his time asleep on a gurney.




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Arsenal 

Strike Team Leader

Location: Tucson, AZ
Member Since: Sat Nov 24, 2001
Posts: 1,711



    Quote:
    A lot of my predictions are based on perceived popularity, sales potential and trends visible in comics writ-large.


I'll be perfectly honest here and say I don't think that's true. I think youre predictions are fairly arbitrary and aren't based off any of the things you cite. And since you didn't back up your road map with any facts or figures from these trends further leads me to doubt the validity of the "map".

I mean, you'll never be able to convincingly link a relationship to sales on a title outside of Spider-Man; The popularity of these characters has nothing to do with who they hook up with; and even if there is a trend that could lead to Logan and Jean finally getting it on, there's no trend on the planet that will support the notion of them ending up with a kid (regardless of if it has powers or not).


    Quote:
    Here's why I disagree: if you take the x-universe as a set of structures filled by characters, the x-universe has never been under girded by Jean Grey the way that Emma Frost does today. The editorial staff has taken a page from Wolverine's playbook retroactively linking her to many marvel heavy-hitters(Namor and Iron Man in specific.) Moreover, Emma has come to serve many roles and actions formerly filled by Magneto and Xavier. Arguably, she is a more pragmatic character that is more in line with modern readers and which characters like Xavier could never recreate for fear of being written "out of character."

    Finally, as much as I'm loathed to write this, Emma is far more emancipated character than Jean was. Jean, pessimistically analyzed, reached her peak in a "good girl gone crazy b#*ch" storyline. Emma on the other hand, is an unapologetic, uncompromising woman. Unlike Jean, she's never been written to be afraid of her potential. These type of female characters, I believe, will stay and flourish in popular culture. And to be clear, I think there's more than enough room for both Jean and Emma. Emma Frost represents an "edgier" but necessary character that Jean would be hard pressed to emulate simply because of the "nostalgic factor."


Whatever character facets Emma has over Jean, don't really indicate why Jean would hook up with/have children with Wolverine. Nor do any of your comments about Emma mean she'll retain her popularity over Jean (which again, still only pertains to popularity with the creative staff of Marvel and not mainstream popularity) after Jean returns.

Right now, Emma is Marvel's "it" girl. She's their flavor of the month(s). And once Jean comes back, the creative teams will have to justify her resurrection by reminding the audience how powerful/awesome Jean is. Emma's presence will then be dialed back. Simple as that.


    Quote:
    Two popular characters who have had previous romantic involvement and would be single, at the same time, for the first time. Honestly, when has Jean not been a part of "scott and jean?"


Usually when she's dead. And if we want to talk trends, odds are stronger that the second Jean comes back, that he'll dump Emma like a hot potato.


    Quote:
    > > > His relationship with Jean was expanded in film and I think it's logical to assume that they'll get together post her return. Didn't Morrison examine their relationship a little when they were in orbit or something?
    > > He did, IIRC. BUT... Do not confuse sexual tension and good on-screen chemistry with the ability to maintain a long-term relationship, much less one that would involve a child.
    > I'm not saying anything long term. How do you define that in comic books? Everything that I am positing above could be accomplished in the same amount of time that Emma and Scott have been together.


Not even remotely. With the amount of events on your map, and given the pacing of comics nowadays, it'd take a little under a decade to hit all those beats.

And additionally, in the time Emma and Scott have been together, they haven't done much. Just had sex in varying locations and hid secrets from each other.


    Quote:
    yeah i don't like wolverine either.


I never said I didn't like Wolverine. I just stated why him and Jean would never work out, much less progress to the point where they have a kid.


    Quote:
    > > > 3)In marvel, characterization is power level.
    > > No. Power level is a crutch relied on by Battle Board posters. Characterization is making a character interesting. Saying Jean and Logan's kid is an omega level mutant doesn't make it any more interesting than if it was a powerless and hairy ginger.
    > again, I'm not saying it's correct or particularly interesting. I am saying it's a trend. Consider how seminal Iceman's possession by Emma was to his character development. Even a large part of Jean's popularity is directly attributed to her power upgrade.


First, I'm disputing the trend you have for how seminal moments involving Emma are. The only trends that can really be associated with her are her sleeping with powerful men and her students dying. Emma might have "nudged" Iceman to improve upon his abilities or attempted to fix Sentry, but those dubious examples are more coincedental than part of any sort of trend.

As for Jean, I wouldn't go so far as to say any time her power gets upgraded then that correlates to her popularity. In fact, from what I've seen in my day, those upgrades tend to provoke more critical reaction than the opposite.


    Quote:
    > > > 4)Kids are in. X-23, Stepford Cuckoos, and Daken.
    > > Correction: Teens and young adults are in. Babies have *NEVER* been in. This is why anytime a baby is born in comics, 99% of the time, they do whatever they can to have the kid age past the newborn stage.
    > Would progeny have been a better word then?


Unless Jean can pop a toddler out of her uterus, I doubt it.


    Quote:
    > > And again, with X-23 and Daken running around, shoehorning in some third little brat is wasting space. Actually, a fourth kid considering there's another Logan jr. in the Savage Land. So how about they find something for his current family to do before introducing another?
    > Naw. At Marvel new is always better.


Not always. Plus, in addition to all of Logan's family running around, we've also got the other Grey/Summers kids running around: Rachel, Cable and X-Man is back as well. I just don't see them adding to that pile.




Cannibalism? Racism? Dude, that's not for us. Those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington. We're just here to eat some dude!

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Stripes55




...is there any reason we can't just let Jean stay dead, or whatever it is that she is now? Why is it even necessary to bring her back?


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Mr Sinister






    Quote:
    ...is there any reason we can't just let Jean stay dead, or whatever it is that she is now? Why is it even necessary to bring her back?


Because her fans will pay money to see her again. And Marvel likes money.

Ergo, it will presumably resurrect her at some point.

Plus, if they're seriously bringing back Cypher, Jean Grey has got to be a sure-fire lock for resurrection. I mean it's a part of her freakin' power-set now, thanks to Morrison...



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