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Superbluerockman




Cyclops is doing what he believes is the right thing. Anyone who has kids would do anything to protect them.
He is behaving as he feels he should to protect Hope and the rest of the mutants.
Bad things will happen when opposing forces refuse to yield. Xavier and the rest are as much to blame as Cyclops. Neither side is asking what the other plans on doing if they get their way. There has been no discussion. Each side just continues to say: "It's my way or else!"
If someone was to say to you, "Give me your child for the good of all." Would you give up your kid? I don't think so. Those of you who don't have children, can't answer this, because you can't "imagine" what its like to have a kid. Only the real experience can help you understand.
Of course, absolute power, corrupts absolutely. We see this time and time again.
Can he be blamed for what he has done. Sure. Is it all him? No. Because if it was, Jean Grey would be considered a murderer....no matter what good she did on top of killing an entire star system and race. You can't have it both ways. If Scott is "a bad guy" then Jean was a villain ten times over.



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tobyboy




That wasn't Jean, though. It was Phoenix-as-Jean. The real Jean was recovering from injuries in a cocoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. Reconned before being published or not, that's the story. X-men history.

This latest "Scott's a dick" thing isn't the only reason Cyclops is disliked by a lot of X-men fans. He's been a dick for quite some time. I actually feel for the character. How is going to feel when, after the Phoenix Force leaves him, he recalls what he did? Remember, Scott insisted the PF be allowed to come to earth unopposed by the X-men, despite Tony Stark's stupid weapon that split the entity (I still find this event very bothersome).

Not that anything could have stopped the Phoenix, anyway.


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superbluerockman




I don't think Cyclops is the one in the wrong here. He only wanted Hope to have the Pheonix power. At some point, he realizes or feels that she is not able to handle the responsibility or power and decides to take it on himself. This is where this story falls short. What was he doing with the power? What was his plan? We won't know because the Avengers and Xavier jumped in to say no way Jose. Again....no discussion. Only, we are here to see that Hope doesn't become Phoenix. The question should have been. What do you intend to do with Hope?


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superbluerockman




While it is very true that it was the Pheonix "entity" that wiped out a whole civilization, that was not the case when the story was written. Claremont and Byrne said so in later interviews. Even Xavier....EVEN XAVIER was prepared to fight for her life even when he knew what she did. For those who don't remember, go back and read it again. The whole "trapped in a caccoon" was a retcon added on after the fact. It still doesn't change the fact that poor Jean was seen as a victim during that whole story. Yet, Cyclops is seen as a "prick" because he is doing the things that must be done. Even Wolverine, who is KILLING PEOPLE is seen as more of a hero than Cyclops. Heck, the whole X-Force team is seen as heroes. Yet, Cyclops is a prick because he won't take shit from anyone when it comes to mutants who were down to the last 198 or so.


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,922


Also, Dark Phoenix in X-Men #137 was on the verge of being lobotomized by the Shi'ar as punishment for her actions. "She" was saved from this fate by committing suicide. That's a pretty heavy price to pay - what price will Scott pay? And for that matter, what punishment awaits Namor, Colossus, Illyana, and the White Queen?




And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
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tobyboy




>Yet, Cyclops is seen as a "prick" because he is doing the things that must be done.

I really don't think that's why Scott is seen as a "prick" by some X-men fans. Remember Madelyne Pryor and the unborn baby? I don't know why Marvel wrote Scott like that but that's when I began to dislike the character. As it has been pointed out, Scott's downslide began a long time ago.


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Warpath77





    Quote:
    While it is very true that it was the Pheonix "entity" that wiped out a whole civilization, that was not the case when the story was written. Claremont and Byrne said so in later interviews. Even Xavier....EVEN XAVIER was prepared to fight for her life even when he knew what she did. For those who don't remember, go back and read it again. The whole "trapped in a caccoon" was a retcon added on after the fact. It still doesn't change the fact that poor Jean was seen as a victim during that whole story. Yet, Cyclops is seen as a "prick" because he is doing the things that must be done. Even Wolverine, who is KILLING PEOPLE is seen as more of a hero than Cyclops. Heck, the whole X-Force team is seen as heroes. Yet, Cyclops is a prick because he won't take shit from anyone when it comes to mutants who were down to the last 198 or so.


I couldn't agree with you more. I've been reading what people have been saying about cyclops ever since he started the whole x-army thing, about how he's being a jerk and what not, but if I were cyclops, most of the decisions he made, I would have made them as well (most, not all). Like I wouldn't have taken the chance that the PF wouldn't wipe out the whole planet or sanction x-force, though part of me understands that one.

Come on people, he is fighting for the SURVIVAL OF HIS ENTIRE RACE, no one really knows how desperate one becomes or the lines one has to cross, and when you live in a world where the whole world is practically trying to kill off the few remaining members of your race, and the worlds heroes don't even recognize you exist unless your doing something they see as wrong, your gonna need to make some really damn difficult decisions, and Scott made them.

Thats one of the MANY reasons the whole schism ark was soooo dumb. If I were him, if the teenagers can fight, then they gonna fight. Its by no means what I want, but living in a world where if you don't fight your only options is to lay down and die, then they gonna fight. I have never really look at wolverine as a hero, not even close, but Scott? My respect for him over the years have grown a lot. It'll be a million years before wolverine is half the hero he is.

Scott didn't kill prof X, the Phoenix did. If Jean was the one to do it, people wouldn't even think twice whether she or the phoenix was the one that did it.




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Tate Walters




Hell, Scarlet Witch is responsible for more deaths than Cyclops Phoenix...and she's an Avenger again....she wasn't in her right mind and neither is Cyclops....Wolverine has slaughtered seveal innocents while being under another's control, etc...either condemn them all or forgive them all


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UName




Just to neutralize her so she'd never pose a threat again.

Otherwise, the Phoenix could have risen once more.

I think the Phoenix theory has evolved since then so them becoming Phoenixes again is probably not a consideration this time. Escpecially since they got it by accident.



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Evil G:DR




I'm going to, once again, remind everyone of how back in the late Silver Age, the Sentinels captured virtually every single known mutant on the planet, and that was well under fifty people. If "ends justifies the means" extreme tactics were unacceptable then, and the X-Men stood up and fought against the Brotherhood and their ways, then it's unacceptable now.

Here, in the real world, there are tribes and racial groups that really are hovering on the edge of being extinct within a few generations, because there aren't enough of them left, and nobody would argue that they should be allowed to run around killing their "enemies", or doing whatever else other things it may take to "re-start the race".

Basically, the X-Men stood against Magneto and his allies because their way of "saving their race" was unacceptable. And now things got a bit hard, so morality and heroism go out the window, and whatever it takes is suddenly OK, and as readers we're supposed to side with them as they take the route they once condemned? The modern-day X-books seem to have embraced the notion that Magneto was ALWAYS right, and Xavier was wrong all along, and that's a really weird and broken place for the franchise to be in.

As for the Schism, isn't it that the teenagers and children shouldn't HAVE to fight? They may not be able to stop them if they want to, because adult authority figures in comics are always inept and Just Don't Understand and are utterly incapable of controlling teenagers and keeping them in school, but they shouldn't HAVE to be fighting.

Also, Hope isn't "Cyclops' child". Of any of the X-Men, Cable is her adoptive father, and he wasn't even around in AvX to get a say on what should happen to her. Cyclops was forcing her towards a destiny she ultimately didn't even want.


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askani






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Superbluerockman




1. It seems like apples and oranges to compare Sentinels capturing mutants to "round them up" with Scott protecting his people. T'challa fought to protect his country/city. He even said he would "kill Namor for this". Scott has been drawing a line in the sand metaphorically for quite some time. People kept stepping over it.
2. I don't see Scott as playing the end justifies the means. That's Wolverine and X-Force...which Wolverine did willingly on Scott's orders. Thus, Cyclops =bad means Wolverine =bad.
3. Cyclops wasn't killing enemies to restart the race. He was in a situation of kill or be killed. That was the point the writers were setting up.
4. At first, Magneto's way was always to attack homo sapiens and let homo superior "take over" the world as the rightful rulers. As he aged, he simply wanted a place to have his mutants be left alone (Asteroid M, Genosha). This was never allowed to become the norm. So he would defend himself. Once he defended himself, he would go overboard, and the X-Men got involved. I disagree with Magneto was always right and Xavier always wrong. I would say both made questionable decisions. Xavier was no saint.
5. Schism proved both points of view had merit. A good buddy's father changed his birth certificate so he could go fight WWII at age 16! He, like Cyclops, believed that he had the right to make that choice....and shouldn't be told "No, you can't fight".
6. Hope is not Cyclops' daughter, but she is a child left in his care. The point is, Cyclops was responsible for her. To let the Avengers take her, when they wouldn't say what their plan was, was not acceptable. Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth for all they knew. They obviously couldn't stop it on their own. Hope was the only chance. It was okay when Jean got possessed. The Dark Phoenix path could have been averted possibly if Scott had his way...but we will never know now. As for her not wanting it....tough. Remember when your parents made you eat your vegetables? How about this quote: "Sometimes we find our destiny on the road we took to avoid it" Maybe Hope will finally find her destiny in AvX 12.


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The Black Guardian 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,000



    Quote:
    I'm going to, once again, remind everyone of how back in the late Silver Age, the Sentinels captured virtually every single known mutant on the planet, and that was well under fifty people. If "ends justifies the means" extreme tactics were unacceptable then, and the X-Men stood up and fought against the Brotherhood and their ways, then it's unacceptable now.

    Here, in the real world, there are tribes and racial groups that really are hovering on the edge of being extinct within a few generations, because there aren't enough of them left, and nobody would argue that they should be allowed to run around killing their "enemies", or doing whatever else other things it may take to "re-start the race".

Why shouldn't any group be allowed to defend themselves from slaughter? That is what "killing their enemies" means. This enemy is actively trying to exterminate all of them and will not stop until they are exterminated. There are only two choices: give up and die or kill the enemy. There is no third option. I have to wonder the worth of a group that will choose the former. If you're going to do that, then here's a gun, now go sit in the corner and euthanize yourself... and try to be quiet about it.

Heck, the US just spent the last decade doing precisely that, and we weren't even close to extinction. Are such acts ideal? Heck no. In an ideal world there wouldn't be the need for them. But that place doesn't exist.


    Quote:
    Basically, the X-Men stood against Magneto and his allies because their way of "saving their race" was unacceptable. And now things got a bit hard, so morality and heroism go out the window, and whatever it takes is suddenly OK, and as readers we're supposed to side with them as they take the route they once condemned? The modern-day X-books seem to have embraced the notion that Magneto was ALWAYS right, and Xavier was wrong all along, and that's a really weird and broken place for the franchise to be in.

Indeed, Old School Magneto wasn't just "saving his race." He wanted more than to just save his race. Xavier was the one fighting to simply "save the race."


    Quote:
    As for the Schism, isn't it that the teenagers and children shouldn't HAVE to fight? They may not be able to stop them if they want to, because adult authority figures in comics are always inept and Just Don't Understand and are utterly incapable of controlling teenagers and keeping them in school, but they shouldn't HAVE to be fighting.

Exactly.


    Quote:
    Also, Hope isn't "Cyclops' child". Of any of the X-Men, Cable is her adoptive father, and he wasn't even around in AvX to get a say on what should happen to her. Cyclops was forcing her towards a destiny she ultimately didn't even want.

Precisely, plus that destiny could have very well harmed Hope or killed her. Cyclops had every reason to think that it would, yet he wanted to throw her into the fire to save his precious race. That alone is practically as bad as killing.




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The Black Guardian 

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,000



    Quote:
    1. It seems like apples and oranges to compare Sentinels capturing mutants to "round them up" with Scott protecting his people. T'challa fought to protect his country/city. He even said he would "kill Namor for this". Scott has been drawing a line in the sand metaphorically for quite some time. People kept stepping over it.
    2. I don't see Scott as playing the end justifies the means. That's Wolverine and X-Force...which Wolverine did willingly on Scott's orders. Thus, Cyclops =bad means Wolverine =bad.

There's a big difference: Cyclops is risking the lives of innocents. Wolverine is/was directly attacking the guilty.

I don't see how you could have been paying attention for the past 5 years if you think Cyclops is not justifying the end with his means. Everything he had X-Force do was justifying ends. He even unnecessarily caused the deaths of a few friends because he needs those ends justified.


    Quote:
    3. Cyclops wasn't killing enemies to restart the race. He was in a situation of kill or be killed. That was the point the writers were setting up.

Well, he hasn't been allowed (yet), but he's certainly been trying to kill friend, enemy and innocent alike just to restart his race.


    Quote:
    5. Schism proved both points of view had merit. A good buddy's father changed his birth certificate so he could go fight WWII at age 16! He, like Cyclops, believed that he had the right to make that choice....and shouldn't be told "No, you can't fight".

There is no "both." The key part of the argument is "have to." In Scott's Utopia, anyone who stays is forced to fight as soon as they're old enough to hold a weapon. In Schism, Wolverine was not saying anyone "can't." He was saying no one should be forced to, especially children.


    Quote:
    6. Hope is not Cyclops' daughter, but she is a child left in his care. The point is, Cyclops was responsible for her. To let the Avengers take her, when they wouldn't say what their plan was, was not acceptable. Phoenix would have destroyed the Earth for all they knew. They obviously couldn't stop it on their own. Hope was the only chance. It was okay when Jean got possessed. The Dark Phoenix path could have been averted possibly if Scott had his way...but we will never know now. As for her not wanting it....tough. Remember when your parents made you eat your vegetables? How about this quote: "Sometimes we find our destiny on the road we took to avoid it" Maybe Hope will finally find her destiny in AvX 12.

The Avengers didn't need a plan. Scott proved himself unfit for the role of guardian by his plan. His plan was potentially homicidal. In the real world, when parents or guardians do this, their children are forcibly removed from their care. Never mind what the plan is for the child once removed.




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Superbluerockman




1. Defending yourself requires that you strike back at a certain point. You can't simply keep defending yourself. If someone wants to kill you, you will be faced with a choice. I'm not saying you have to kill them, but just look to X-Force to prove my point. Fantomex is no longer with us. That Brotherhood is evil and wants the X-Men dead.

2. Magneto was reacting from a place of fear. His family was killed. Murdered for their religion. He was fighting to prevent that from happening again. Problem was he was misguided and thought being top dog was the way to do it. I don't think Scott feels that way. He just wanted to be left on Utopia. He became an isolationist.

3. Again, in a perfect world, kids shouldn't have to fight, but when the fight comes to your front door, it's all hands on deck. Yes...they shouldn't have to, but sometimes...you have to. See "Goonies" "Home Alone" "E.T." for examples when kids have to step up. Or "The Patriot" or "Star Wars" (Luke was 16 i believe..or was it 18?). Just saying...sometimes kids are caught in a do or die. It's not pretty, but it's reality.

4. Cyclops did not know what the Phoenix coming meant. He knew he was better equipped to handle it than the Avengers...as proven by AvX...but the Avengers interference has robbed us of what might have happened. I do not believe Cyclops was going to "sacrifice" Hope. Again, we have no idea what his thoughts and plans were.


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Superbluerockman




1. How is Cyclops risking the lives of innocents? If you are at war, and I do believe Cyclops believes he is at war, how do you defend yourself...especially on multiple fronts? At some point, you risk becoming General Custer...surrounded by the enemy and your forces (loved ones) are killed off. Slowly but surely, this was what was happening. Wanda's actions put Scott in that scenario. Again, I ask, when in this scenario, what do you do? Lie down and die or fight for your lives?

2. I do not agree with your assessment that Cyclops was trying to kill friend and enemy and innocent alike. He was doing what I stated above.

3. I see your point about shouldn't "have to" fight. But...I don't think Scott forced anyone to fight. I do think his judgment about how best to protect the younger X-Men was suspect. But as we will see in one month, the Original X-Men were children. Not much older than the 5 lights and other young mutants.

4. How was his plan homicidal if Hope ultimately ends up becoming Phoenix? If Hope is so "not ready" or "unwilling", why are the Avengers training her?? Surely they are not planning on letting Hope battle the Phoenix...or are they? Tell me how this current plan of action is any different than what Scott would have done? I don't think you can. You don't know what Scott's plan was...but I would argue his plan was no different than what is happening right now.

Instead of letting Scott handle the situation, the Avengers took away his choices. They were scared and didn't know what to do other than "put Hope in custody". Unless I read it wrong, they had no plan other than to "take Hope" and hope for the best.


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The Black Guardian 

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,000



    Quote:
    1. Defending yourself requires that you strike back at a certain point. You can't simply keep defending yourself. If someone wants to kill you, you will be faced with a choice. I'm not saying you have to kill them, but just look to X-Force to prove my point. Fantomex is no longer with us. That Brotherhood is evil and wants the X-Men dead.

That's precisely what I was saying.


    Quote:
    2. Magneto was reacting from a place of fear. His family was killed. Murdered for their religion. He was fighting to prevent that from happening again. Problem was he was misguided and thought being top dog was the way to do it. I don't think Scott feels that way. He just wanted to be left on Utopia. He became an isolationist.

There is nothing isolationist about Cyclops or Utopia. Their policy is to do things throughout the globe. That's the opposite of isolationist. Isolationist would be: leave us alone and we'll just sit here and twiddle our thumbs. That's not what Cyclops has been doing the entire time he's been on Utopia. He's been actively engaging the world on all levels, playing hero.


    Quote:
    3. Again, in a perfect world, kids shouldn't have to fight, but when the fight comes to your front door, it's all hands on deck. Yes...they shouldn't have to, but sometimes...you have to. See "Goonies" "Home Alone" "E.T." for examples when kids have to step up. Or "The Patriot" or "Star Wars" (Luke was 16 i believe..or was it 18?). Just saying...sometimes kids are caught in a do or die. It's not pretty, but it's reality.

Regardless of where the fight is, each person chooses for themselves. Even if my home gets invaded by criminals, I can elect to do nothing about it. The entire argument of Schism was about forcing children to fight. No one should have that right. If they elect to, then fine. That's why Wolverine let the other kids stay on the island. They chose a different path.

And Luke was 19 in A New Hope. All of his friends of the same age were already at the academy and doing adult things, but he was stuck on the farm because his aunt and uncle couldn't afford otherwise. He wasn't really a kid. He was a grown man. And one could certainly argue that he was already doing adult things.


    Quote:
    4. Cyclops did not know what the Phoenix coming meant. He knew he was better equipped to handle it than the Avengers...as proven by AvX...but the Avengers interference has robbed us of what might have happened. I do not believe Cyclops was going to "sacrifice" Hope. Again, we have no idea what his thoughts and plans were.

Cyclops knew precisely what the Phoenix was all about. No one has more experience with it than him. This is the guy who freaked out every time Jean showed an inkling of Phoenix, because he knew it would cost her soul or life. He simply had some crazygonuts faith that it would help and Hope could handle it, but he didn't give a damn about Hope's well-being. Even Emma tried to get him to see reason, before she too was corrupted by the Phoenix.




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The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 26,000



    Quote:
    1. How is Cyclops risking the lives of innocents? If you are at war, and I do believe Cyclops believes he is at war, how do you defend yourself...especially on multiple fronts? At some point, you risk becoming General Custer...surrounded by the enemy and your forces (loved ones) are killed off. Slowly but surely, this was what was happening. Wanda's actions put Scott in that scenario. Again, I ask, when in this scenario, what do you do? Lie down and die or fight for your lives?

Well, for starters, he's risking the lives of 7 billion people on Earth for what amounts to an absolutely crazy and unfounded idea that Phoenix will restart mutants, which really have no right to continue. No group has that right.

Throughout the past several years, he has continually risked the lives of other people, like pulling X-Force out of a mission so they could stupidly travel to the future.


    Quote:
    2. I do not agree with your assessment that Cyclops was trying to kill friend and enemy and innocent alike. He was doing what I stated above.

Then you simply are not paying attention. The above statement IS doing precisely that.


    Quote:
    3. I see your point about shouldn't "have to" fight. But...I don't think Scott forced anyone to fight. I do think his judgment about how best to protect the younger X-Men was suspect. But as we will see in one month, the Original X-Men were children. Not much older than the 5 lights and other young mutants.

Cyclops was forcing them to fight. How on Earth could you have missed that very boldly stated point of Schism? That was the entire situation!


    Quote:
    4. How was his plan homicidal if Hope ultimately ends up becoming Phoenix? If Hope is so "not ready" or "unwilling", why are the Avengers training her?? Surely they are not planning on letting Hope battle the Phoenix...or are they? Tell me how this current plan of action is any different than what Scott would have done? I don't think you can. You don't know what Scott's plan was...but I would argue his plan was no different than what is happening right now.

We do know what Scott's plan is and was. He stated it very clearly. Emma even tried to talk him out of it in the beginning.




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Superbluerockman




1. Where was it specifically stated that Phoenix would wipe out all life on Earth? That may have been the Avengers take, but they don't know that...as evidenced by the fact that it's here in the form of the P5 and life is still going on. Also, I also don't recall Scott saying that Phoenix would "restart" the mutants race? I may have missed that but if I did, I don't believe that Scott was willing to gamble 7billion people's lives for his 200 or so mutants. That I would need to have a reference for. Please state the issue and I will check. What I read was Scott saying the Phoenix force would be a game changer. It would put "power" back on the side of the Mutant race. I read no mention of restarting the mutant race.

2. Sorry, but your opinion, is an opinion, not a fact. I have no problem with you having an opinion. I have a problem with you stating your opinion as fact. My opinion is Cyclops is not "tyring to kill friend, enemy and innocent" alike. Again, I did not read anything that stated he was willing to sacrifice 7 billion lives for his 200.

3. Again, I didn't read it the way you did. If anything, the line between being an X-Man and being a New Mutant is blurred. At what point does one decide when they are ready to fight? And who makes that decision? Kitty Pryde was 16 when she became an X-Man. Is that the magic age? If my kids were stuck in my house and people were trying to get in to take them away or do something sinister, you can damn well bet I would show them how to use a gun or something similar...if the numbers warranted it. Again, I bring up the Custer's last stand analogy. Hide the young ones...but the ones that can aim and shoot...they are aiming and shooting.

4. I did not see Emma talk Scott out of his plan. His plan was to train Hope to be able to handle the Phoenix force. There were doubts if she could handle it or if she wanted to handle it. No talk of not doing it. No talk of laying waste to 7billion people. Only talk of Scott and the Extinction Team trying to train Hope. So what happened? Cap said she comes with the Avengers. No if ands or buts. Scott said get lost. Cap said Scott had no choice. Scott said get lost with his visor. Then the Avengers attacked the island to get Hope. Then Hope took off...and went to the Avengers and what did they do???? They took her to K'un L'un and TRAINED HER TO DEAL WITH THE PHOENIX FORCE!!!! The exact thing Scott wanted in the first place. So the Avengers did what Scott wanted to do all along...except they painted him as the bad guy doing it. That's the story I am reading. What did you read?


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