In the past some writers convinced me that they made a good couple, but just as often they failed. Gambit is best when he is NOT a full-time X-men. As for Rogue, she was great in the beginning and then - slowly lost appreciation of her as she gradually gained complete control of her powers which went on for a long time. Mummudrai and Hecatomb was a real turn off. Her depiction in Uncanny Avengers was slooowly bringing me back around to her. Suddenly, she is back in the thick of it with X-men (standing around) business and it feels so inorganic. "Leading the Blue Team vs. Phoenix"? C'mon she should bring in the UA. Granted some of her personality, here, brought back some of the 90's fondness - even the topical comparison to kissing Deadpool was very funny. (Although, why ignore the Johnny Storm fling thing?) And then...
*does a spit take*
Say what?! As much as her renewed power problem is a welcome reveal - it was TERRIBLE EXPOSITION and inorganic development too. Plus, WHY such a skimpy dress?! It will be... interesting to see how this writer handles their dynamic.



Yeah. Other than a character piece catching up with Anna and Remy this was not an exciting/interesting premiere mostly for that reason. Also:
== The first 3 pages was gratuitous frivolity - this "readers' daydream" was better summed up in the 1 sentence of the Recap Page.
== It would be great to get Rogue's last name. *does NOT hold breath*
==The MERE 2 pages of the PARAiSO threat was underwhelming. Some average looking silouetted man or woman has glowing eyes as he does SOMETHING, in a flash, to three friends as part of some program agenda. And... and... no, that's it.
==The (newish) School name is still cumbersome in length. Maybe Phoenix is returning to attack for casually discarding the dedicated renaming to Jean Grey School for no given reason.
==The whole sequence of Remy and Anna getting reaquainted was enjoyable and outweighed the boring trope of the long, showingLESS, Danger Room Trope. (And them ignoring Pixie's Soul Dagger.)
==Kitty giving Rogue the mission was necessary plot device to give this mini a reason but it could've been better. Blinking out Cerebra signals are baffling? To which telepath? Wouldn't it be how DEATH is indicated? Cerebra operating perameters usually have more precidence. And why sell it as a couple retreat when there were an odd number kids in the prologue -3 not 4- read odd. Was that a live monitor feed Seeing Dr.Grand on the monitor brochure made sense but it had Theo too? Was it a live feed - if so then need for immediate recon with believable cover was curious?
==The 2 page plane ride had fun banter.
==The arrival sequence was boring. Guess Rogue isn't that famous as a Unity Squad Leader. If they're worried about mind control why not send a telepath? Wouldn't Cerebra I.D. specific type powers like that?
==The suddeness of the last page trap was a funny gag. But was the bit worth it 'cuz next issue should tell us how they got caught in with sentences or sequence and that will be something belated and anticlimactic to anticipate. Hmm...

---

And speaking (offputting) lazy reveals in Iceman #7, Say what? PYRO IS BACK...

Support Cancer Research and Alzheimer Research.

I would guess they only referred to Deadpool because the thing with him is over since Secret Empire. Mentioning Johnny might remind readers that he and Rogue have actually grown much closer again in recent issues, most notably UA (vol. 3) #27-30. And that they actually have a nice, sane and non-overwrought together.

[quote *does a spit take*

Now that Wonder Man is gone, Gambit mentions that she is super strong?

In UA vol. 3 #22 and 23 Wonder Man was expelled from Rogue's body (due to her absorbing Deadpool's healing factor from kissing him), but she retains his super-strength and power of flight. In the process Wondy's powers appear to have been duplicated, as Wonder Man also has them.

So has she been purged of Carol's super strength and other powers? I thought the only time Simon could fly without a jet pack was when he got possessed by Count Nefaria?


Reverend Metoer (I lost track of Rogue's status since the late 90's)

I am guessing it is just a pretext to get her back to classic portrayals. I can't imagine her having legitimate class 100 strength and being in theory stronger than Colossus and Namor.

Yup. Towards the end of X-Treme X-Men Rogue lost all her powers, and afterwards (summer 2004) only her inborn powers returned, not those absorbed from Carol. Maybe they wanted to make her more like the movie version?




Didn't read them myself, but according to wikipedia the true flight ability was something Simon (re-)learned during the first (1993) and second (2007) Wonder Man series. But then that article leaves you with the impression that Wondy's powers have been all over the place for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Man#Powers_and_abilities

Well, the fight in UA vol. 3 #29 shows that she is almost as strong as the Juggernaut...

Quote:
Didn't read them myself, but according to wikipedia the true flight ability was something Simon (re-)learned during the first (1993) and second (2007) Wonder Man series. But then that article leaves you with the impression that Wondy's powers have been all over the place for decades.

Well he did get caught in that Nega Bomb in Galactic Storm and his body was later destroyed by the Kree in Force Works. I just never knew he could fly under his own power until that Neferia crossover with Avengers and Thunderbolts (and fellow ionic being Atlas/Goliath for a while could fly as well but he lost that power later in events too convoluted to summarize)

AFAIK, her classic portrayal was that she had no permanent powers and only kept any absorbed power for a length of time dependant on contact. IMO, this was an ideal interpretation to keep always. Then she was too vulnerable for stories so they said she kept contact with Ms.Marvel more than her body should and the Kree powers kicked in 'permanently'. Then it 'turns out' that Carol's power finally wore off after her body finally readjusted. This was good too. Then after a ton of post-90s mish mash canon she came to be in control and somehow kept strength and flight 'permanently'. Forgot of the UA claim where she said she reverted to classic mode seemed - dubious. And here, she takes a point blank fist from a Sentinel at a time she 'lost her powers'. Is the onus on the reader to assume she touched Colossus or someone 'for a time' so that she survived that showing?

Hmm...

---

Support Cancer Research and Alzheimer Research.

Especially after she absorbed Carol. Does she still have any of her power left?

I find it odd that Marvel cycles her through these three phases exclusively:
1. Only the Rogue powers
2. Rogue powers and strength and flight
3. No powers

There are plenty of other possibilities. She could have the Rogue powers plus super speed. This would allow her to rush in and touch someone before they knew she was there. She could have the Rogue powers plus invisibility. (Similar concept to the first example.)

But I guess I see the thought process. Super speed would harken back to Quicksilver. Invisibility would harken back to Sue Richards. But strength and flight? Those two powers are the go-to generic super powers. Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Black Bolt, Namor, Wonder Man, Nova, Monet St. Croix, Captain Britain - I'm sure I'm missing a host of other examples. By giving Rogue strength and flight, they're making her generic, which means she isn't stealing any particular hero's thunder. Trouble is, they often tend to forget her inherent mutant ability and just make her a flying puncher.

During most of X-Treme X-Men, she had access to any power she'd acquired in her past. Her body is supposed to keep the information indefinitely. Then it all got purged.

There also were brief periods when Rogue had
4. Absorption power plus any power she chose from anyone she had ever absorbed in the past
and
5. Absorption, flight and fiery plasma (the latter two permanently absorbed from Sunfire)

And if you look outside 616, the Rogue of the Age of Apocalypse had absorption and magnetic powers (absorbed from AoA Polaris)




What is funny is that with super-strength, invulnerability and flight she often is seen duplicating her teammates. For instance during the 1980s she usually was nearly as strong and invulnerable as Colossus, and ever since has been using the Fastball Special, which used to be one of Piotr's signature moves (as a matter of fact she has done it with Colossus as the guy being thrown on at least one occasion). There were also certain similarities between Rogue's Ms. Marvel powers and those of Rachel (Rachel's TK serving as a stand-in for Rogue's super-strength and invulnerability and both having flight powers). And in the last issues of Uncanny Avengers Rogue had (apart from the absorption) exactly the same powers as her newly-returned teammate Wonder Man. A lot obviously depends on the skill of the writer - Claremont e.g. wrote differently enough from Colossus that they had different fighting styles despite greatly similar powers.

Oh! Wow! I never knew this! I've only seen her flying and punching or else using whatever power she just acquired moments ago.

Hmm. I can see why Marvel would think twice about a hero with so many different power sets available. She would be very hard to write. You'd have to remember every power she ever acquired. You'd also need a villain who could overcome all those powers.

Was she ever classified as Omega level? Her power as you've described it would seem Omega to me. Especially since she could steal an Omega mutant's powers!

Was this in Extreme X-Men? It sounds like what Black Guardian was talking about in his response to my comment.




Hmm. I vaguely recall this period. I thought it was weird, if I recall correctly. Funny how she always ends up with flight.




Yes, I agree. By giving Rogue generic powers, Marvel sets things up so that either she or some other member of whatever team she's on will seem redundant. I guess if I were Marvel, I would make Rogue the muscle on whatever team she was on, or else I would have the other super strength character be stronger than Rogue but incapable of flight. (The Rachel/Rogue redundancy is interesting, as on the surface they would seem very different.)

Hmm. Did Wonder Man's pacifism coincide with Rogue's acquisition of his powers? Maybe that was the writer's (albeit silly) solution to the redundancy problem.

Have we ever seen Rogue, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Man engaged in battle at the same time? Redundant as that may be, it would also be pretty impressive. It would really seem like Earth's Mightiest Heroes!

Yup, although it began a little earlier, ca. X-Men vol. 2 #107, when Rogue absorbed a Skrull mutant called Z'cann.







Well, flight and super-strength are two of the most useful superpowers, which is why they are probably the most common ones.







I would point out that redundant does not mean superfluous, and sometimes redundancy can be useful for a team. For instance very often a team can find itself in a situation where they are falling from a great height, and then you need a sufficient number of team members being able to fly (or do something similar, like phasing or teleporting) to bring them all safely to the ground. Back in Rogue's early days as an X-Men you had flyers Storm, Rogue and Rachel plus teleporter Nightcrawler and phaser Shadowcat, with Wolverine, Colossus, Professor X and Cyclops unable to (functionally) fly.(1) At the same time the New Mutants had Cannonball and Warlock able to fly, Magik able to teleport (if necessary all of her teammates in one go), and Dani Moonstar got a flying horse.

(1) Other duplications at the time: Colossus, Rogue, Nightcrawler (IIRC) and Wolverine all had superhuman strength of some degree while Rachel could achieve similar effects with her telekinesis. Professor X and Rachel both were telepaths.




Well, technically her absorbing his powers caused him to disappear until recently. I don't think Wonder Man's pacifism silly, and IMO it could at least give him a unique angle to set him apart from other powerhouses. Super super-strong superheroes are so common in the Avengers that you can expect two or more of them serving on a given team simultaneously. IIRC when Wonder Man joined the Avengers for the first time, the team already contained Thor, Iron Man and Giant-Man (the Hulk having already left), in later days Wonder Man also served or could have served alongside Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, Hercules, Luke Cage, the Thing etc. etc., not to mention Simon's closest pal, the Beast. (Note that quite a few of these powerhouses have a super-strength + flight combo, just like Wonder Man).

Note that you have a not dissimilar phenomenon in the JLA, where you can often see Superman, Wonder Woman and at least one Green Lantern on the same team, sometimes in conjunction with Power Girl or Captain Marvel (Billy Batson). It is a matter of making their fighting styles and personalities sufficiently distinct. (I mean, that already used to work in the Golden Age at Fawcett with Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel Junior and Mary Marvel, not to mention the three Lieutenants Marvel, intermittently working together, all with essentially the same power set; although of course writing then catered to simpler tastes).




I think we've seen all three pairings you can form from these three so far, but not yet all of them as a trio. Maybe in the near future in the context of Avengers: No Surrender?

You're right, of course. My perspective is shaped by the fact that neither the Fantastic Four nor the original X-Men nor the original 1975 Giant-Size X-Men nor the original Champions had a flying super-puncher. But you're right, the original Avengers had two flying super-punchers, although, once Iron Man and Thor left the team, there was a tendency for a long time to not have flying super-punchers. The Vision could fly and super-punch but logically he shouldn't have been able to do both at the same time, though I'm not sure every writer bore that in mind. Wonder Man originally couldn't fly. Hercules and Goliath (Hank or Clint) couldn't fly. The Black Knight could fly on his horse but wasn't super-strong.

The Defenders had multiple super-strong flyers (Namor, Silver Surfer, Valkyrie) but only one of these (Namor) was really a flying super-puncher. The Valkyrie couldn't really punch from her seated position on Aragorn and the Silver Surfer almost always led with his power blasts.

I guess my point is, I don't typically expect a lot of flying super-punchers. However, you're right, as Marvel progressed into the later decades, flying super-punchers became more common. Nowadays seeing several of them at once is pretty normal. I guess I just never reset my expectations. Kind of silly, really.




The falling from a burning plane scenario was certainly a recurring one, and I typically enjoyed it, as it highlighted the teamwork and training of the X-Men.




I just can't take a pacifist superhero seriously. Does he at least believe in self-defense? Or when the team is attacked, does he sit down on the floor with his arms folded and start quoting Gandhi to everyone?




Different personalities and fighting styles would certainly be the key to keeping my interest.





I'll be buying that for as long as I can stand it, so I can talk about it on these message boards. Mark Waid is far from being a favorite of mine, in fact I often detest his writing, but I'll try to keep a positive attitude unless and until I reach a bursting point.

I was thinking of superheroes in general, where you have an awful lot who are either super-strong, able to fly or to do both. And of course being able to fly is something that can be achieved by technical means as well - I think the fact that for a while there weren't as many "flying super-punchers" among the Avengers has something to do with the introduction of Quinjets and the fact that many of the really heavy hitters could fall from a great height without being damaged seriously. In the Legion of Superheroes eventually everybody could fly with their LSH rings. In the Fantastic Four you had a great selection of flying objects including some that could be used individually (like the divisible-into-four-parts Fantasti-Car and the bicycle-like machine - I forget its name - Kirby designed for the Thing). Also, Mr. Fantastic soon assumed aerodynamic shapes - turning into a parachute or glider - and once Susan developed her force-fields, three out of four could fly to some extent under their own power while the Thing was virtually indestructible and so didn't need to.

Funnily enough, two of the most notable recurring antagonists of the FF in their early days packed a punch and were able to fly - Namor and Dr. Doom. This of course was in part to enable them to take on the FF all by themselves. This was something I did not delve into in my previous post, but the power-sets of individual heroes and superhero teams usually correlate with those of the villains and teams of villains they face.




Well, yea, if being a "flying super-puncher" is only a subset of your powers, writers will tend to emphasise the other powers in a context where there are other super-punchers present.













Well, so far I believe we've seen only one fight in which Simon has been involved since his return, in UA vol. 3 #28, and there he fastballed the Beast at the bad guys and then subdued Whirlwind by pinning his arms to his body in a wrestling lock. The pacifist aspect at this point seems to be that he tries to avoid punching out his opponents. It could of course be that the writers will eventually bring him to a point where he has to decide whether he wants to stop being a superhero or stop being a pacifist. (There are of course shades of pacifism. In real life for instance there have been conscientious objectors who went on to serve as combat medics in wars they did not like while others would have refused to do so as in their view such a course of action was immoral).

Incidentally, I probably exaggerated by calling this aspect "unique". The Silver Surfer in certain phases of his career was written as a kind of pacifist and frequently appeared to be a quite reluctant superhero.

Post-script: Since the Avengers Board is giving me grief, let me just mention here that the original Avengers line-up contained 60 per cent "super-punchers" in an all-flying team. The Hulk is able to leap high and far enough to count his as functional flying.

Quote:


Quote:
AFAIK, her classic portrayal was that she had no permanent powers and only kept any absorbed power for a length of time dependant on contact. IMO, this was an ideal interpretation to keep always. Then she was too vulnerable for stories so they said she kept contact with Ms.Marvel more than her body should and the Kree powers kicked in 'permanently'. Then it 'turns out' that Carol's power finally wore off after her body finally readjusted. This was good too. Then after a ton of post-90s mish mash canon she came to be in control and somehow kept strength and flight 'permanently'. Forgot of the UA claim where she said she reverted to classic mode seemed - dubious. And here, she takes a point blank fist from a Sentinel at a time she 'lost her powers'. Is the onus on the reader to assume she touched Colossus or someone 'for a time' so that she survived that showing?

Quote:
I find it odd that Marvel cycles her through these three phases exclusively:
1. Only the Rogue powers
2. Rogue powers and strength and flight
3. No powers

Quote:
There are plenty of other possibilities. She could have the Rogue powers plus super speed. This would allow her to rush in and touch someone before they knew she was there. She could have the Rogue powers plus invisibility. (Similar concept to the first example.)

Quote:
But I guess I see the thought process. Super speed would harken back to Quicksilver. Invisibility would harken back to Sue Richards. But strength and flight? Those two powers are the go-to generic super powers. Iron Man, Captain Marvel, Black Bolt, Namor, Wonder Man, Nova, Monet St. Croix, Captain Britain - I'm sure I'm missing a host of other examples. By giving Rogue strength and flight, they're making her generic, which means she isn't stealing any particular hero's thunder. Trouble is, they often tend to forget her inherent mutant ability and just make her a flying puncher.

I like her best as a flying strong person. They got a lot of (maudlin) drama out of the absorption powers but I would be fine if she just stayed a flying puncher because I'm sick of that power. I don't like her without the strength and flying.

That's an interesting perspective! I have to admit, I'm so used to seeing her as a flying super-puncher that I would feel like something was missing if she appeared otherwise - and I know she has.

Heck, most of the time, flying and punching (or flying and lifting) are all she does. Many issues go by without her absorbing anything from anyone.