Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

Avengers >> View Post
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Post By
Reverend Meteor

In Reply To
padlock

Subj: Re: Avengers Who Are... Damaged Goods.
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 at 12:38:25 pm EDT (Viewed 2 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Avengers Who Are... Damaged Goods.
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:34:33 pm EDT (Viewed 2 times)



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      I like Byrne (which no one else does) but he did ruin Wanda and Vision. Utterly. He turned Vision into Data from TNG and drove Wanda insane...she even gave Simon an evil hanndjob in front of Agatha when she went around the bend!



    Quote:
    I have to agree about the handjob, but then, Byrne was always a little bit of a pervert. And whattaya mean nobody likes Byrne?? I love Byrne. He's my all-time favorite creator. He was merely trying to correct the damage done to Wanda and Vision by that awful 12 issue limited series, where Vision was given a dopey human personality. What always made the Vision great was his Spock-like personality, where logic reigned, but you occasionally got a glimpse of his human side. I think Byrne's efforts on WCA were meant to return Vision to that state. And Wanda's mental break was never meant to be permanent. Byrne had no idea that it was all subsequent writers would fixate upon. The failure to keep Vision and Wanda relevant falls on Bendis and his ilk.


Well never let it be said I take up for Englehart. I didn't like his work on them either. Or anything else he ever did except his Silver Surfer run.

(is it just me or did Byrne and Engelhart take a perverse glee in retconning each others work?)



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      Busiek tried to stabilize them and make them readable again. But really...the damage was already done. And his stupid retcon that Byrne was both right and wrong about the Vision and the Human Torch not being the same robot was just lazy and non committal....and Wanda looked like a stripper at a stag party half the time and was back to romancing that creep Simon.



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    I was luke warm about Perez's costume design, but it wasn't stripper oriented, rather gypsy/belly dancer. Trying to give her an ethnic look, which I would think most would appreciate given how obsessed some are with diversity.


Well that would be like introducing an African character in a dashiki. But I guess we've seen that far too often anyways (looking at you wakandans).



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      Wanda and Vision stopped being Wanda and Vision in Byrne's run. Now they're pod people whose motivations never make any sense. They've lost their minds, been recreated...they're like Theseus's Ship...every part of them has been replaced. Wanda's no longer a wife, a mother, the daughter of Magneto, her reputation has been ruined, her mentor Agatha is dead. She's been stripped of everything. And Vision got it even worse...his entire personality was wiped for YEARS.



    Quote:
    Absolutely true. But, how is that Byrne's fault? Most of what you mentioned occured after he left Marvel.


The stories he told with them are his fault (Vision's deconstruction and returning as Data-esque, Wanda losing her children, Wanda going insane etc).

The stories that were told after he left...I agree they are not his fault (it's not fair to blame Byrne for Bendis's Disassembled for example). But he should be faulted for the things he actually did do to them.





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