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Subj: Re: Is Avengers #200 As Bad And Disgusting As People Say That It Is? Would The Alternative Have Been Better?
Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 at 08:47:25 am EST (Viewed 184 times)
Reply Subj: Is Avengers #200 As Bad And Disgusting As People Say That It Is? Would The Alternative Have Been Better?
Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 at 04:17:27 pm EST (Viewed 317 times)
Quote:I have no desire to read this because it's usually listed as one of the worst Avengers issues (I remember Bendis trashing this in Wizard when he was starting his Avengers run.) and stories, but I was wondering if it's not as awful as it's reputation. I'm sure that it got retconned at this point anyway, but from what I understand, Ms. Marvel (Carol.)got raped and impregnated by: Immortus? Marcus, the Son of Kang? I don't understand either of those two characters, but I do remember one of them appearing in the (Somewhat underrated.) Kang War by Kurt Busiek. I remember the issue where he had Carol and Marcus talk and interact, but I couldn't get through the issue (I found it to be boring, and I didn't really care enough about the history between them.). Anyhow, is this true or was it blown out of proportion (Kind of like how people say that Hank was a big wife abuser when he only hit her once in a psychotic rage.)? I also hear that the Avengers just let it happen and watched as the bad guy took off. This kind of reminds me of the end of Disassembled when Cap just hands Wanda over to Magneto and he just takes off.
Quote:As to the original plan, I read that it was supposed to be the Supreme Intelligence who did this to her and or impregnated her. Would this have been better or have made any sense? Did she ever have the baby? This doesn't sound like other writers followed up on this. Did the Avengers really just abandon her like that? If it was followed up on, wasn't she mad?
Quote:Thanks for the help.
When I was a kid I found this as a back issue at a flea market and liked it but I tend to like those weird pregnancy storylines.
The writer's intent wasn't for it to be rape IMO. The rape interpretation comes from a line where Marcus says he used a subtle mind control boost of Immortus's machines to make Carol his (and yes that's rape...but the writer didn't see it that way IMO). According to Marcus he could have made Carol his from the very start with the mind control machines but he wanted to win her heart so he plucked people from history like Beethoven, Shakespeare and Marine Antoinette to help him woo her and after weeks she finally gave in with the help of the boost of Immortus machines.
The story as written makes it sound like Carol running off with this dude who had his way with her in limbo and later gave birth to him on earth was her happily ever after (literally the last 3 words of the issue). The Avengers are happy for her and Hawkeye is even depressed he destroyed Marcus's machines as he was going to bring about peace on earth or something. Earlier in the issue the Avengers are thrilled Ms. Marvel had a baby and can't seem to fathom why she wanted nothing to do with him.
Chris Claremont (rightfully so) later said it was rape and had Carol take the Avengers to task for letting her run off into the sunset with her mind controlling rapist. IMO if Marcus was messing with Carol's mind he was probably messing with the Avengers minds but a part of me legitimately feels they really are just that stupid and out of touch.
All of this could have been avoided if Avengers #200 had left out the line "admittedly with a subtle boost from Immortus's machines...you became mine". If that line had been left out of the story it wouldn't have been a rape IMO. I've always wondered if an editor threw in that bit by mistake and it radically changed the context of the story . I really don't think the writer (David Michelinie) thought of Marcus as a rapist at all. I suspect the issue was heavily edited as the story's plot is credited to Shooter, Layton, Michelinie and Perez...so it sounds like the story was sort of amalgam of all of their ideas. The story was cobbled together for an anniversary issue and I think no one noticed that they had implied Carol ran off with her rapist and the Avengers wished her well.
I would read it. It's an interesting piece of Avengers history at the very least.
Reverend Meteor (to be honest I don't see much difference in what Marcus did and what Starfox does with his powers)
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