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America's Captain 

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139
In Reply To
Reverend Meteor

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689
Subj: Re: RATE Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10
Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 at 04:45:23 pm EST (Viewed 428 times)
Reply Subj: Re: RATE Hawkeye I -as an Avenger- from 1 to 10
Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 at 10:09:53 am EST (Viewed 436 times)


    I hate Hawkeye. But he gets a 10.

    All of the other Avengers have lives that get in the way of them being effective Avengers but the one important thing in Hawkeye's life is that he's an Avenger. Friends, lovers, family members...he'll sacrifice every one of them to sate the Avengers and their legacy.

    Even if his wife is raped and lets her rapist die he'll represent the Avengers moral standard and shame her for it.

God. How many of these damn rape stories were there? I presume this was Mockingbird? Somehow I managed to avoid these stories. Which I'm grateful for. I would be very happy if the word "rape" or the depiction thereof never appeared in another superhero comic till the end of time.

    When a robot mind wipes out trillions of Kree lives he will refuse to kill said robot mind.

Partly because he will generally side with Cap, and Cap is one of the no-kill boy scouts, along with Peter Parker, Clark Kent, and Bruce Wayne. I wish stories where these moral questions are pushed to the extreme would not be told. They're not really stories. They're philosophical thought experiments dressed up as fiction. In this case it was absolutist morality versus utilitarianism. Almost everyone has a number of potential victims which, when that number is reached, will drive them to agree the potential perpetrator should be killed. For most of us that number will be something like two, three, or four. Make it thousands and the decision becomes easy. Millions and it becomes self-evident. Billions and the contrary decision becomes absurd. Trillions and the person pushing for absolutist morality seems actually to be a threat to life in general and may actually deserve to die for upholding a philosophy too anti-life to be tolerated by the living. So of course Cap is made to be that person and Hawkeye is made his enabler because Hawkeye will almost always be Cap's enabler.

Some stories simply shouldn't be told. A lot of the foregoing was rehashed in another thought experiment dressed up as fiction, in this case Hickman's Avengers epic. Here again Cap is made the voice of absolutist morality, which forces him to take a position that jeopardizes every remaining universe, untold quadrillions of lives. His philosophy is so anti-life that he comes across as actually insane. He needs to be marginalized and so of course he is. For the sake of a universe, let alone an untold number of universe, shooting Cap in cold blood would have been justified if no other alternative presented itself. Philosophical thought experiments are not really fiction at all. They're essays - academic exercises - dressed up in fiction's clothing.

    Even when he's on sabbatical from the group he will force himself on a team of hardened criminals and train them up the Avengers way...using lies and offers of presidential pardons.

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