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Subj: Re: Do you want the three Avengers books to resume after the weekly series ends?
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 at 06:02:14 am EST (Viewed 107 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Do you want the three Avengers books to resume after the weekly series ends?
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 at 03:51:28 pm EST (Viewed 106 times)
Quote:Well, that depends a lot on what you mean by "ultimately the same team". The first "Team B", the West Coast Avengers, was officially set up by the Avengers, but soon became autonomous in various respects (IIRC most of its members were recruited by its own leader, Hawkeye, not the leadership of the East Coast team ("Team A").
Quote:As you say, it was officially set up by the HQ Avengers. And Hawkeye having autonomy is hugely different from Rogue or Sunspot having autonomy. Hawkeye has been an Avenger since the 60s. He was one of the first three recruits after the founders left.
Nitpicker that I am I don't count Captain America as a founder and so see Hawkeye as the fourth recruit.
Quote:These days you have the Unity Squad which started out as an official Avengers team, then was dissolved by Hydra!Cap but since then did not reestablish its official ties to the Avengers, even though many of its members are Avengers of long standing (including one of the founders, the Wasp, who stuck with the team throughout) who were never officially expelled from the Avengers (Hydra!Cap only threw out the mutant members of the Unity Squad).
Quote:I don't even know what to say here. The Secret Empire story line was so problematic that as soon as I start to frame a reply my brain short-circuits.
Quote:That is of course one of the problems with the Avengers: There are so many of them that you can set up a lot of teams which can call themselves Avengers with a lot more justification than your hypothetical Florida-based team. Take the rebellious Occupy Avengers, for instance, another team started by Hawkeye.
Quote:Hawkeye is a special case, as noted above. He's almost (not quite, but almost) a founding member. I guess I would also go along with Wanda or (now I'm really stretching things) Pietro starting an Avengers team. In fact, add the Black Panther and the Vision (the real Vision) to the list. Anybody who was an Avenger when either Stan Lee or Roy Thomas was writing the book has sufficient standing to start an Avengers team, in my opinion. Again, Pietro doing this would be a real stretch, but logically I'd have to go along with it.
Quote:As an aside: I'm a bit surprised you didn't bring up the real example of a random team calling themselves Avengers - the Great Lake Avengers (who, due to the vagaries of the law in the Marvel Universe, for a time were the holders of the trademark of the name "Avengers").
Quote:The Great Lakes Avengers were always comic relief. They were never meant to be taken seriously. In fact they make my point for me. Does anybody think the Great Lakes Avengers really had the right to call themselves Avengers? They were never supposed to be legitimate. They were supposed to make us roll our eyes and shake our heads.
Well, the joke in the last iteration of the GLA's title was that the US government recognized their right to call themselves Avengers following recent upheavals affecting the main team. (IIRC it had something to do with the fact that up until then the Maria Stark Foundation held the rights to the name Avengers).
Quote:But I don't want to lose sight of my original objection. Though Hawkeye, the Black Panther or the Vision could legitimately (in my opinion) start an Avengers team, this only holds true under certain circumstances, for example if the HQ Avengers were being led by, say, a Nazi wearing Captain America's uniform. The Vision couldn't legitimately (in my opinion) just decide one day to start a new team on a whim. The HQ team would need to be compromised in some way. If such isn't the case, then the HQ team must sanction the new team, no matter who starts it. Even the Wasp, founding member, before she starts a new Avengers team, must either be sanctioned by the HQ team or else must have an unimpeachable reason for going rogue, like, say, the HQ team has been disbanded by the federal government because of some legal infraction, or the HQ team has been replaced by Skrulls, or the HQ team has decided to start killing villains, or the HQ team has decided to start toppling foreign governments... things like that.
Well, the thing with the Unity Squad is that it was set up by Captain America but then refused to disband when Cap (now secretly Hydra!Captain) ordered them to do so and expelled Rogue, Cable and Deadpool. Afterwards Captain America (now back to his old self) asked Rogue to return to the team, but she refused but adding "Ah'll promise you we'll answer the call when the time comes, but we need to do it our own way, the way that works for us." And Cap accepts that. (UA vol. 3 #30). I think one important unstated reason for Rogue and the Unity Squad to detach themselves organisationally from the other teams is that they don't want to be regulated by the government.
Rogue emerged as the team's leader almost against her wishes (she started out as the team's field leader or quarterback under Cap's authority, then everyone looked at her for leadership). But her team does contain the Wasp (founder, also Rogue's biggest backer), Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch (second and third recruit) as well as longtime members Beast and Wonder Man. And with the exception of Rogue (who would regain her membership the moment she'd ask for it) every single member of the Unity Squad is an official Avenger. If you look at the organisational table in Avengers #676 and 677, the Unity Squad currently is the biggest Avengers team, containing eight members, while the "HQ team" contains only four or five (the Vision joining in between the two issues), of whom Hercules is the senior member (joined #45), and whose leader is the Falcon (joined in #184 (1979)). And in #678, when the Avengers reorganize into three ad-hoc forces, there is no question over Rogue getting to choose and lead one of the two "away" task forces.
The question is how do the Avengers generally get to make decisions. Do only currently active members have a say or also the reserve Avengers? It seems evident that leaders (who however aren't always elected) have a bigger say. In the case of the Unity Squad it was apparently set up because Cap decided to do so, but then it rebelled against Cap's order to disband (incidentally, the Beast, Wonder Man and the Scarlet Witch all only joined the squad after Cap gave that order). They clearly continue to consider themselves Avengers in the ways that matter (other than organisationally), which is made evident by the fact that they, and not the HQ team, rebuilt Avengers Mansion.
Another thing: As things were at the end of Uncanny Avengers vol. 3, the Unity Squad apparently operated as a nameless team, they did not officially call themselves the Unity Squad or Avengers, even though Marvel decided not to rename the book something other than "Uncanny Avengers".
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