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In Reply To
Blue Jay

Subj: Re: Hmmmmmm
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 07:03:23 pm EST (Viewed 1 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Hmmmmmm
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 05:50:09 pm EST (Viewed 1 times)

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> Of course he can. Two chess players can grow up with no connection to each other, it's only when they play against each other there is a relationship.

Yeah, but like you said they then have no connection to one another then.

> Actually, that's what I WAS asking. Why is "Batman: Year One" "paramount"?

It redefined Bruce Wayne as a man that trained a lifetime to be Batman, started out taking small steps and evolved over time. It also establishes how Batman becomes a hero in Gotham and forms a partnership with Gordon. Much of it influenced Batman: Year One.

> When was it mentioned there, out of curiosity?

It was actually mentioned twice. Let me look up the episodes.

Once in Season One in the Rubber Face of Comedy, Part One where Joker mentions that all it takes to make a sane man crazy is one bad day and a chemical bath and in Season Two Strange Minds, were the Batman enters Joker's mind and meets a personality of the Joker that is a sane normal man that tries to help Batman. The sane normal man then falls into a chemical bath and is destroyed by the Joker.

> > > >Christopher Nolan used it as source material for his new film, it has stood the test of time and it has been one of the big bestsellers of DC.

> If they were going for "realistic" they'd lose the make up, surely.

I do not know. I mean it is somewhat hard to believe that a man that falls into a chemical bath comes out all perfectly bleached white.

Also, the makeup makes it seem like a person is becoming a monster or evolving into one over time, similar to Bruce's evolution into Batman in Batman Begins.

> And you seem to overlook that a good chunk of the Killing Joke is taken from the 1951 story.

Yeah, I think I tried to mention that when I said that the original comics alluded to similar events as those portrayed in The Killing Joke.

> And as you inevitably forget in these discussion, the Joker himself in TKJ says he has no clue as to what his true origin is.

Yeah, I do not buy that and I do not think anybody really buys that either. I look at that more as the Joker not able to accept the truth because if he ever did he would have to give up being the Joker. The same way Batman can never get over his parent's murder otherwise he would cease to be Batman and movie on.

> >Even before that though his origin was alluded to having something to do with society damming the Joker and the Joker trying to get back at society which makes much more sense than any movie or animated depiction thus far.
>
> And that would be the motivation for a rational man... the Joker isn't rational.

Insanity starts out from rational ideas that then spiral into irrationality.

> > Of course he can. Two chess players can grow up with no connection to each other, it's only when they play against each other there is a relationship.
>
> Yeah, but like you said they then have no connection to one another then.

Until they play, and then they do, but the events that lead up to it, do not need to intersect.

> > Actually, that's what I WAS asking. Why is "Batman: Year One" "paramount"?
>
> It redefined Bruce Wayne as a man that trained a lifetime to be Batman,

That was established from the start

>started out taking small steps and evolved over time.

Aside from the fact he briefly wore civvies, not that much changed.

>It also establishes how Batman becomes a hero in Gotham and forms a partnership with Gordon. Much of it influenced Batman: Year One.

Well, it would, since that's what it was! \:\) (I assume you meant Batman Begins there?)

> > When was it mentioned there, out of curiosity?
>
> It was actually mentioned twice. Let me look up the episodes.
>
> Once in Season One in the Rubber Face of Comedy, Part One where Joker mentions that all it takes to make a sane man crazy is one bad day and a chemical bath and in Season Two Strange Minds, were the Batman enters Joker's mind and meets a personality of the Joker that is a sane normal man that tries to help Batman. The sane normal man then falls into a chemical bath and is destroyed by the Joker.

Thanks, but neither of those mention Batman, so there's none of the link you seem to feel is so important.

> I do not know. I mean it is somewhat hard to believe that a man that falls into a chemical bath comes out all perfectly bleached white.

And as noted, this is comics, happens all the time, it's perhaps more surprising he didn't get superpowers out of it.

> Also, the makeup makes it seem like a person is becoming a monster or evolving into one over time, similar to Bruce's evolution into Batman in Batman Begins.

Except that misses the point of the Joker, he already IS a monster to the core.

> > And as you inevitably forget in these discussion, the Joker himself in TKJ says he has no clue as to what his true origin is.
>
> Yeah, I do not buy that and I do not think anybody really buys that either.

No, I can honestly say, hand on heart that in the 20 years since TKJ, you are about the only person I've ever come across who holds to that. Others are delighted at the very Jokerish ending with the reveal he might have been "joking" all along.

>I look at that more as the Joker not able to accept the truth because if he ever did he would have to give up being the Joker. The same way Batman can never get over his parent's murder otherwise he would cease to be Batman and movie on.

Except Batman has, when he chose to continue as Batman after his parent's murderer was caught (This was the case up until B:Y1 and since IC)

> > And that would be the motivation for a rational man... the Joker isn't rational.
>
> Insanity starts out from rational ideas that then spiral into irrationality.

But as soon as delusional behavious kicks in there's no reason for consistency either.


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