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Post By
Blue Jay

In Reply To
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Subj: Re: Hmmmmmm
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 07:56:22 pm EST (Viewed 1 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Hmmmmmm
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 07:03:23 pm EST (Viewed 1 times)

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> > Of course he can. Two chess players can grow up with no connection to each other, it's only when they play against each other there is a relationship.
>
> Yeah, but like you said they then have no connection to one another then.

Until they play, and then they do, but the events that lead up to it, do not need to intersect.

> > Actually, that's what I WAS asking. Why is "Batman: Year One" "paramount"?
>
> It redefined Bruce Wayne as a man that trained a lifetime to be Batman,

That was established from the start

>started out taking small steps and evolved over time.

Aside from the fact he briefly wore civvies, not that much changed.

>It also establishes how Batman becomes a hero in Gotham and forms a partnership with Gordon. Much of it influenced Batman: Year One.

Well, it would, since that's what it was! \:\) (I assume you meant Batman Begins there?)

> > When was it mentioned there, out of curiosity?
>
> It was actually mentioned twice. Let me look up the episodes.
>
> Once in Season One in the Rubber Face of Comedy, Part One where Joker mentions that all it takes to make a sane man crazy is one bad day and a chemical bath and in Season Two Strange Minds, were the Batman enters Joker's mind and meets a personality of the Joker that is a sane normal man that tries to help Batman. The sane normal man then falls into a chemical bath and is destroyed by the Joker.

Thanks, but neither of those mention Batman, so there's none of the link you seem to feel is so important.

> I do not know. I mean it is somewhat hard to believe that a man that falls into a chemical bath comes out all perfectly bleached white.

And as noted, this is comics, happens all the time, it's perhaps more surprising he didn't get superpowers out of it.

> Also, the makeup makes it seem like a person is becoming a monster or evolving into one over time, similar to Bruce's evolution into Batman in Batman Begins.

Except that misses the point of the Joker, he already IS a monster to the core.

> > And as you inevitably forget in these discussion, the Joker himself in TKJ says he has no clue as to what his true origin is.
>
> Yeah, I do not buy that and I do not think anybody really buys that either.

No, I can honestly say, hand on heart that in the 20 years since TKJ, you are about the only person I've ever come across who holds to that. Others are delighted at the very Jokerish ending with the reveal he might have been "joking" all along.

>I look at that more as the Joker not able to accept the truth because if he ever did he would have to give up being the Joker. The same way Batman can never get over his parent's murder otherwise he would cease to be Batman and movie on.

Except Batman has, when he chose to continue as Batman after his parent's murderer was caught (This was the case up until B:Y1 and since IC)

> > And that would be the motivation for a rational man... the Joker isn't rational.
>
> Insanity starts out from rational ideas that then spiral into irrationality.

But as soon as delusional behavious kicks in there's no reason for consistency either.

> Until they play, and then they do, but the events that lead up to it, do not need to intersect.

Why not?

> > > Actually, that's what I WAS asking. Why is "Batman: Year One" "paramount"?
> >
> > It redefined Bruce Wayne as a man that trained a lifetime to be Batman,
>
> That was established from the start

It was established from the start that he worked a bit and took karate. Not that he trained for a lifetime under different masters, went around the world, tried to understand criminals, and sought to find himself as depicted in Batman: Year One, Batman: Blind Justice and Batman: The Man Who Falls.

> >started out taking small steps and evolved over time.
>
> Aside from the fact he briefly wore civvies, not that much changed.

In the original comic book besides the murder of his folks Batman just saw a bat and that got him to become Batman.

Batman: Year One revealed that Batman experimented several times before becoming Batman, including trying to be a vigilante without the bat symbol. Batman: The Man Who Falls revealed that Bruce's fear of bats is what led him to choose the bat symbol as a way to frigthen criminals with his own fear. It also revealed that Bruce took years to take several different disciplines under different masters to get in the right state to be able to become Batman. It was both a mental, physical and spiritual journey.

> >It also establishes how Batman becomes a hero in Gotham and forms a partnership with Gordon. Much of it influenced Batman: Year One.
>
> Well, it would, since that's what it was! \:\) (I assume you meant Batman Begins there?)

Yeah.

> > > When was it mentioned there, out of curiosity?
> >
> > It was actually mentioned twice. Let me look up the episodes.
> >
> > Once in Season One in the Rubber Face of Comedy, Part One where Joker mentions that all it takes to make a sane man crazy is one bad day and a chemical bath and in Season Two Strange Minds, were the Batman enters Joker's mind and meets a personality of the Joker that is a sane normal man that tries to help Batman. The sane normal man then falls into a chemical bath and is destroyed by the Joker.
>
> Thanks, but neither of those mention Batman, so there's none of the link you seem to feel is so important.

What do you mean? Did not both the Joker and Batman have a bad day that changed them forever. It establishes a dichotomy between the two making it very important. Further in the first episode of The Batman the Joker mentions how they are two sides of the same coin, like tragedy and comedy. He also dressed up as Batman in The Laughing Bat. What more connection do you want?

Batman 1989 had no connection at all other than Jack killing Wayne's folks and BTAS's Joker's only connection to Batman was that he killed the father of Bruce's girlfriend. Mr. Freeze in BTAS was more connected to Batman than the Joker.

> > I do not know. I mean it is somewhat hard to believe that a man that falls into a chemical bath comes out all perfectly bleached white.
>
> And as noted, this is comics, happens all the time, it's perhaps more surprising he didn't get superpowers out of it.

LOL Nolan is trying to create realism, if he were wanting to go straight for the comics he would have Batman wear pajamas with purple gloves.

> > Also, the makeup makes it seem like a person is becoming a monster or evolving into one over time, similar to Bruce's evolution into Batman in Batman Begins.
>
> Except that misses the point of the Joker, he already IS a monster to the core.

This was ever mentioned in the comics. You are mixing (1989) Batman and BTAS with the comics.

In the comics Batman never found out much about the Joker, except that he might have been Red Hood. It was not until Alan Moore's The Killing Joker that the Joke's origin was finally revealed. The only thing Batman found out is that the Joker might be REdhood. Even then Batman did not consider the Joker necessarily a monster, for if he had he would have just killed him.

> > > And as you inevitably forget in these discussion, the Joker himself in TKJ says he has no clue as to what his true origin is.
> >
> > Yeah, I do not buy that and I do not think anybody really buys that either.
>
> No, I can honestly say, hand on heart that in the 20 years since TKJ, you are about the only person I've ever come across who holds to that. Others are delighted at the very Jokerish ending with the reveal he might have been "joking" all along.

Really? Joking? He freaking had flashbacks that were the motivations for his actions. He was joking or trying to joke about the origin not being true, because to accept it means to move on. If you notice after Batman offers to help the Joker, the Joker cracks another joke. This shows that the Joker feels he cannot accept the truth and thus cannot be saved by Batman.

The Killing Joke was referenced once more in another comic book. I have only ran into a handful of people that do not see The Killing Joke as canon and most of them are on this board.

> >I look at that more as the Joker not able to accept the truth because if he ever did he would have to give up being the Joker. The same way Batman can never get over his parent's murder otherwise he would cease to be Batman and movie on.
>
> Except Batman has, when he chose to continue as Batman after his parent's murderer was caught (This was the case up until B:Y1 and since IC)

No he did not. You obviously have not beeen reading the comics. Batman's murderer originally was killed by mobsters, then retconned so that Joe Chill was killed in Batman: Year Two, then retconned so that he was never caught and just recently retconned so that he was caught an sent to prison. In Batman: Blind Justice Batman relives the deaths of his parent's murder every night. Reliving their deaths over and over again is what keeps him being Batman. If Bruce ever chose to forget about his parents' murder he would be able to movie on with his life. He has thus far never been able to do this.

> > > And that would be the motivation for a rational man... the Joker isn't rational.
> >
> > Insanity starts out from rational ideas that then spiral into irrationality.
>
> But as soon as delusional behavious kicks in there's no reason for consistency either.

Insanity also has patterns that can be detected and at times treated.

Further there are different levels of insanity as well. Some with more cognitive functions than others.


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