Batman >> View Post
Post By
Blue Jay

In Reply To
Tenzel Kim

Subj: Re: Nice POVs
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 10:20:29 pm EST
Reply Subj: Not bias against TKJ just your interpretation of it
Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 at 04:45:30 pm EST

Previous Post

> It seems this message board is filled with people that are biased against TKJ going as far as believing that the origin in it is highly questionable and not at all definitive.

I absolutely love the Killing Joke but as many other around here I don't agree with your belief that we are neccesarily learning the real origin of the Joker. That is the big difference. It is not so much a matter of bias against TKJ as it is against your interpretation of it.

> What many fail to understand is that the Joker is unsure of his own origin, however TKJ is written by Alan Moore to give the audience his definitive origin of the Joker.

Where have you ever heard Moore state this. The book itself plainly states that sometimes he remembers it one way and sometimes another. That's part of the beauty of the story. This way Moore actually allows for ALL different origins by any creator to be true. There is no difinite version, it can change as often as creators want to change it without that ruining the versions that came before or after. It's the perfect retcon.

> Never has it been said anywhere that the origin of the Joker in TKJ is not definitive, in fact such an origin has been reinforced several times, only the Joker's awareness of such an origin is questionable, but everybody that has read TKJ is supposed to be aware that the origin there is true.

It has never been stated that the origin in TKJ IS definitive. We have had Joker origin stories that have used the origin from TKJ and we've had stories that didn't. While being a great companion piece to TKJ, The Man Who Laughs by Brubaker didn't really acknowledge TKJ origin, except for the fact that the Joker was the Red Hood before becoming the Joker and that was not a TKJ invention.

> I only found out about Batman: The Killing Joke because everywhere I went online people lauded it as the definitive origin that cannot be questioned. By the way it is not my take on the origin, it is Alan Moore's take on the Joker origin. If anybody has a better one I would sure like to see you write it for DC, because the only origin we have is TKJ's origin.

No there have been more than the Moore version, such as the recent Batman Confidential one (which wasn't all that good though). What is so great about the origin in TJK is the fact that the definitive origin of the Joker is that there is no definitive origin.

> So I am going to list different places that have fans of Batman: The Killing Joke.

And I'm sure you'll find a lot of fans around here as well, just not fans of the same interpretation that you have of it.

Yes it is true that the story in Legends of the Dark Knight and Gotham Knights claim that the origin we saw in TKJ is true but personally I am of the opinion that the writers of those stories completely missed the point and rather than reinforcing TKJ they weakened it and they are definitely not on the top of my favorite Joker stories.

> If you do not like the Joker's origin in TKJ that is fine, but do not merely throw that origin to the wind for no reason, instead come up with your own origin that is better and then bring it out, otherwise if you cannot put out then just live with origin you have.

I don't thrown it to the wind for no reason. I throw it to the wind because in my opinion the fact that this was just one possibility and for a character like the Joker having a definitive origin that is not definitive is the absolute best origin. I happen to like the origin we saw in TKJ but at the same time I love the fact that it isn't neccesarily the right one. This leaves every writer in the future free to explore their own version without any of them having to negate the others.

Tenz.

Those are some great povs. 8\-\)

Yeah, Alan Moore is displeased with Batman: The Killing Joke because he looks at it as not as great and meaningful as his other works.

The Swamp Thing Saga is about environmentalism, V for Vendetta is about fascism versus anarchism, Watchmen is about determinism, questioning authority, and the human condition. Batman: The Killing Joke is not about any big world themes, it is about just Batman and the Joker.

The perspective that the Joker's origin from Batman: The Killing Joke might not be true is open to discussion I though I look at it as pretty definitive since it has been supported by DC and remains unsurpassed, but I can see how some might question it with DC constantly having retcons . 8\-\)

I look at the Joker's line in Batman: The Killing Joke at the end simply about the Joker being so nuts he cannot accept his origin. Since Alan Moore has not commented one way or the other about what the meaning of line is, I can see the differing views to the meaning of such a line. Although with DC's past support of the origin in this graphic novel, I pretty much look at this issue settled.

Ed Brubaker's Batman: The Man Who Laughs does in several ways support Batman: The Killing Joke. It sets up the Joker as a victim of society who wants to get revenge on society for ruining and taking away his normal life. Batman even figures out that the Joker must have had some sort of normal life in the one shot and that when he lost it he went mad. However, what that normal life was the Batman does not figure out.

Yeah, with DC it is hard to know exactly what they are up to. The new Batman: Confidential origin really feels like an Elseworlds Tale, yet according to DC it is the official origin, however DC also still calls the Joker's origin in Batman: The Killing Joke as the definitive origin as well, so confusion is bound to happen. Anyways I think we can all agree on that Batman: Confidential did not live up to what it could have and is far from having anything really to do with the main Batman titles.

The comic book Joker written by Bob Kane, Denny O'Neil, Steve Englehart and Alan Moore is very different from the Tim Burton and Bruce Timm Joker.

The comic book Joker was Red Hood, is a thief of various jewels and paintings, comes up with insidious schemes, does not want to know the identity of Batman and is obsessed with insanity.

The movie and animated Joker is a mobster assasin, comes up with schemes concentrated on getting money, wants to unmask and kill Batman, and wants to live forever.

Although both fell into a vat of chemicals and their appearance is similar, these are two completely different characters with different personalities and origins.

When did Terry become part of the DC universe? I recall that in a comic book there was an alternate future where Tim Drake was wearing the Batman: Beyond costume, but that is it.