Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

Black Panther >> View Post
·
Post By
Thatguy

In Reply To
Primetime.

Subj: Re: No idea honestly
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:36:38 pm EDT
Reply Subj: Re: No idea honestly
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 at 06:08:48 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > One problem I see is that you criticize portraying Wakanda as having developed technilogical advancement naturally. You seem to want it to be the stereotypically backward black African nation that gains advancement only from the combination of an individual anomaly and Western technology. Can you not see how this would be looked at negatively by black readers?
>
> You have a bad habit of placing words in my mouth, Primetime. Please do not make a habit of it, eh?
>
> I never stated, nor do I want, Wakanda to be some stereotypical, backwards nation. As a matter of fact, I defended Priest's choice to present Wakanda as modern as opposed to the stereotypical on Stan and Kirby gave us in this very thread ( http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=070314191639).

Ok, my apologies. You apparently would prefer Wakanda to have been no more than modern (as practically all Africans nations in modern times are actually modern) before T'Challa. Am I correct?

> I fail to see how Panther making Wakanda an advanced nation would be viewed negatively by anyone. For one thing, it's Wakanda's technology at it's core.

No, it's T'Challa's technology, via Western education, that he gives to Wakanda.

> Most importantly, it's an impressive feat of genius for T'Challa few can match. He uplifted his entire country, making it a world power by the merits of his own genius. Every piece of advanced technology os owed to T'Challa's genius, at least in part.

Pushing a planet is an impressive strength feat, but not necessary for a character to be highly impressive. Plus, pushing a planet is usually deemed so unrealistic, even by comicbook standards, as to be considered silly by most.

The point is that not liking the idea of fictional black Africans developing high tech AS A GROUP, but being given such tech by an individual anomaly/freak of nature can easily be seen as implying that such a portrayal is just too outrageous.

> It's in no way realistic, but it's an amazing accomplishment. And one especially important considering the sheer number of geniuses out there. Pym has his particles, Stark has his armor, Richards basically everything, and T'Challa had Wakanda. Now, he's got nothin'.

What does Batman have? I mean, I don't think anyone has ever viewed Wakanda as T'Challa's niche. I actually see T'Challa like you describe Richards. He basically has everything.

> If only that were the case. How exactly has Hudlin put Wakanda above regular super science?

I didn't say that he did. T'Challa further enhances Wakanda to a higher level of super science that it was at before. But not above super science as a whole.

> No, I believe I've stated that Hudlin is trying to make Panther flawless, but simply lacks the skill. If Hudlin were functionally a better writer, I honestly believe he'd make T'Challa a 'Mary Sue'.

And you speak of putting words in people's mouths. Loeb just had Sabretooth break chains T'Challa had on him. Shouldn't T'Challa have technically advance chains that Creed wouldn't break? But I doubt that Loeb will be attacked as Hudlin is.

> You are right on one score, though. T'Challa really hasn't faced an interesting challenge in a while. Who do you think is to blame for that?

Crossovers.

> > > One problem I see is that you criticize portraying Wakanda as having developed technilogical advancement naturally. You seem to want it to be the stereotypically backward black African nation that gains advancement only from the combination of an individual anomaly and Western technology. Can you not see how this would be looked at negatively by black readers?
> >
> > You have a bad habit of placing words in my mouth, Primetime. Please do not make a habit of it, eh?
> >
> > I never stated, nor do I want, Wakanda to be some stereotypical, backwards nation. As a matter of fact, I defended Priest's choice to present Wakanda as modern as opposed to the stereotypical on Stan and Kirby gave us in this very thread ( http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=070314191639).
>
> Ok, my apologies. You apparently would prefer Wakanda to have been no more than modern (as practically all Africans nations in modern times are actually modern) before T'Challa. Am I correct?

Correct. A bit ahead of the curve and Israel tough works well, but Kirby tech should only be around because of T'Challa.
>
> > I fail to see how Panther making Wakanda an advanced nation would be viewed negatively by anyone. For one thing, it's Wakanda's technology at it's core.
>
> No, it's T'Challa's technology, via Western education, that he gives to Wakanda.

Every super genius went to college. Doom, Pym, Richards even. None of their colleges get the credit for their genius, why should that be any different for T'Challa?

If it's that big an issue, have him attend a notable African college, or Middle Eastern one.
>
> > Most importantly, it's an impressive feat of genius for T'Challa few can match. He uplifted his entire country, making it a world power by the merits of his own genius. Every piece of advanced technology os owed to T'Challa's genius, at least in part.
>
> Pushing a planet is an impressive strength feat, but not necessary for a character to be highly impressive. Plus, pushing a planet is usually deemed so unrealistic, even by comicbook standards, as to be considered silly by most.
>
> The point is that not liking the idea of fictional black Africans developing high tech AS A GROUP, but being given such tech by an individual anomaly/freak of nature can easily be seen as implying that such a portrayal is just too outrageous.

How so? Whether T'Challa brought about the technology or it was the society itself, they still have it.

What's important about T'Challa introducing it is that it demonstrates the character's intelligence, his ability. It sets him apart.
>
> > It's in no way realistic, but it's an amazing accomplishment. And one especially important considering the sheer number of geniuses out there. Pym has his particles, Stark has his armor, Richards basically everything, and T'Challa had Wakanda. Now, he's got nothin'.
>
> What does Batman have? I mean, I don't think anyone has ever viewed Wakanda as T'Challa's niche. I actually see T'Challa like you describe Richards. He basically has everything.

How can people not see Wakanda as T'Challa's niche? I can only think of one story, ever, that had Wakanda but no T'Challa, set in modern continuity.
>
> > If only that were the case. How exactly has Hudlin put Wakanda above regular super science?
>
> I didn't say that he did. T'Challa further enhances Wakanda to a higher level of super science that it was at before. But not above super science as a whole.

By raising Wakanda up without doing the same to T'Challa, brings his character down. Honestly, Hudlin has presented Panther as little more than average for Wakanda. That might be good for those faceless Wakandians we never see, but it undermines T'Challa's character, dilutes what makes him, him.
>
> > No, I believe I've stated that Hudlin is trying to make Panther flawless, but simply lacks the skill. If Hudlin were functionally a better writer, I honestly believe he'd make T'Challa a 'Mary Sue'.
>
> And you speak of putting words in people's mouths. Loeb just had Sabretooth break chains T'Challa had on him. Shouldn't T'Challa have technically advance chains that Creed wouldn't break? But I doubt that Loeb will be attacked as Hudlin is.

First, predicting Hudlin's bad writing is no more putting words in people's mouths, than predicting Loeb being attacked less than Hudlin.

Second, Loeb's been bashed many places, many times. Search the Superman archives, I was a harsh critic of his stuff, even when he did stuff I wanted to like.

Honestly, you can blame Hudlin for that as much as Loeb. As much as he likes to have characters brag relentlessly about Wakanda's superiority, he's done little to show it.
>
> > You are right on one score, though. T'Challa really hasn't faced an interesting challenge in a while. Who do you think is to blame for that?
>
> Crossovers.

Which Hudlin chooses to particpate in.


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