Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

Black Panther >> View Post
·
Post By
DamonO

In Reply To
Thatguy

Subj: Re: That arguement is antiquated.
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:29:43 am EDT
Reply Subj: Re: That arguement is antiquated.
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 08:07:00 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > No other series has ever used half as many crossovers and guest stars >in such a blatant attempt to push up sales.
>
> Thatguy, I'd like to address that point you made above. First of all, let me make it clear that I much prefer reasoned, civil debate rather than shouting matches, so understand that I am respectfully disagreeing with you here, not trying to pick a fight.

I understand, and know that you're a good guy. To be honest, that's why I decided against continueing this thread, up until the rodent troll problem. Though I disagree with both you and Primetime on some matters, extended debate on the matters would be sour grapes, as you enjoy the series and I don't.
>
> Your assertion that the BLACK PANTHER series depends on crossovers and guest-stars more than any other series is not correct, in my opinion.
>
> Since CIVIL WAR was the big crossover event that just ended this year, I decided to look at a couple of other, ongoing monthly Marvel series to see how many tied-in with CIVIL WAR, and compared that with BLACK PANTHER.
>
> I considered an issue of a comic to be an "official" Civil War tie-in when it displayed the Civil War banner (or trade-dress) on the cover.
> Here's what I found:
>
> Amazing Spider-Man tie-ins: #530, 531, 532, 533, 534, 535, 536, 537, 538
>
> Fantastic Four tie-ins: #536, 537, 538, 539, 540, 541,542, 543
>
> Black Panther tie-ins: #18, 21*, 22, 23, 24, 25
>
> Final tally: Amazing Spider-Man: NINE
> Fantastic Four: EIGHT
> Black Panther: SIX
>
> Note: BLACK PANTHER #21 was released with two covers, one which did not display the CIVIL WAR banner and one that did. I counted it anyway.
>
> Of course, the current crossover now at Marvel is WORLD WAR HULK. I checked Marvel's official list of titles tieing in to WWH. The BLACK PANTHER title was not on the list -- although GHOST RIDER, HEROES FOR HIRE and PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL (among others) are on the list.
>
> As for guest-stars being added to "push-up" sales, I actually see nothing wrong with that as long as the guest appearances make sense within the context of the story. But even if you look at the majority of guest-stars who've appeared in the series -- not counting the wedding issue in which everybody showed up -- I'd say its hard to make the case that these guest-stars would have an appreciable effect on sales.
>
> Luke Cage, the Falcon, Brother Voodoo, Blade, the Inhumans, Namor, Monica Rambeau,and Shang-Chi has all made guest appearances. NONE of them is even starring in their own comics, so I doubt that many people would suddenly pick up an issue of BLACK PANTHER just to see them. I don't really see how this is any different than, say, what I've seen in the pages of MS. MARVEL and THUNDERBOLTS, both titles that routinely have guest appearances from other characters in the Marvel U.

You forget to add the X-Men and House of M to that list. In fact, the crossover with X-Men was the first crossover that series had had in at least 5 years.

Also, both Blade and Cage have a decent fanbase. They're hardly third stringers ;\)
>
> Now some have made the argument that Storm was added to the cast in order to increase sales. Maybe so, but again, I don't see how that's any different than what other titles have done. They added Spider-Man and Wolverine to the Avengers cast, and now Avengers is Marvel's best-selling franchise. So should BLACK PANTHER be held to a different standard?

Because there are so many that they detact from the actual title, and come so close together that they prevent any stories about Panther's world.

We've had Cannibal around since the first arc. We've barely seen T'Challa's reconned in sister and T'Challa's supporting cast is virtually non existant. The series runs from one crossover to the next without even really contributing to the title's star.

I don't deny the commercial success, but the series is a creative failure because, as we've seen, it's completely unable to retain said readers even after all the help it's been given.

> I understand, and know that you're a good guy. To be honest, that's why I decided against continueing this thread, up until the rodent troll problem. Though I disagree with both you and Primetime on some matters, extended debate on the matters would be sour grapes, as you enjoy the series and I don't.
> >
Thanks much, I appreciate that.

> You forget to add the X-Men and House of M to that list. In fact, the crossover with X-Men was the first crossover that series had had in at >least 5 years.
>
The X-Men crossover, which encompassed two issues of BLACK PANTHER, helped set the stage towards reestablishing the relationship between the Panther and Storm, which of course led to their marriage. It took place in Wakanda, so its not as if that crossover diverted from some other storyline in the Panther's title. As for House of M, that was only for one issue.

Incidentally, the X-Men participated in the House of M crossover prior to appearing in the Panther's title.

> Also, both Blade and Cage have a decent fanbase. They're hardly third stringers ;\)
> >

Well, that's debatable. I love both characters, but at best they have a small but loyal fanbase. Blade has just been canceled for what, the fourth or fifth time? His series didn't even last a year. As Luke Cage, he was the only member of the Avengers (out of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Sentry, and Spider-Woman) that didn't have his own series or one in the planning stages. Neither of them have enough star power to appreciably increase sales on a title -- in fact, I think sales when down in the issue where Blade made his first appearance.

> Because there are so many that they detact from the actual title, and come so close together that they prevent any stories about Panther's world.
>

The Panther's title, even when written by Priest, has always alternated between him being in Wakanda and the rest of the world. The X-Men crossover took place in Wakanda, as did the issues leading up to and including the wedding. If you go back and look at the Priest issues -- and I'm only citing those since they're the ones most critics of this run set as the standard -- you'll see that quite a few of those issues took place outside of Wakanda.

> We've had Cannibal around since the first arc. We've barely seen T'Challa's reconned in sister and T'Challa's supporting cast is virtually non existant. The series runs from one crossover to the next >without even really contributing to the title's star.
> I don't deny the commercial success, but the series is a creative failure because, as we've seen, it's completely unable to retain said >readers even after all the help it's been given.

As I pointed out in my earlier reply, Amazing Spider-Man spent nine issues tieing in to CIVIL WAR. That's almost a year. FANTASTIC FOUR spent eight issues. And I'd be willing to bet you that there was some drop off in sales after the tie-in issues ended. That's typical of ANY series, not just Black Panther.

And if tieing in to crossovers means a writer isn't giving his title character the development that he should, does that mean that the writers of Spider-Man and the FF are also guilty of what you're saying Hudlin is guilty of?

Big crossover events like CIVIL WAR and the like usually increase sales on related titles. That's why they do them. And I don't think the Panther title should be held to a double-standard just for doing what virtually every other mainstream Marvel title does. And again, I ask this respectfully, do you honestly know for a fact that the Panther title has more guest stars and does more crossovers than any other Marvel title? I'd really like to see proof of that.


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