Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

Black Panther >> View Post
·
Post By
Thatguy

In Reply To
DamonO

Subj: Re: That arguement is antiquated.
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 04:40:52 pm EDT
Reply Subj: Re: That arguement is antiquated.
Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:20:52 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > > I understand, and know that you're a good guy. To be honest, that's why I decided against continueing this thread, up until the rodent troll problem. Though I disagree with both you and Primetime on some matters, extended debate on the matters would be sour grapes, as you enjoy the series and I don't.
> > > >
> > Thanks much, I appreciate that.
>
> No prob. Respectful, intelligent debate is hard to come by sometimes. >Gotta give it to get it, and deserve it.

Amen.

>
> It took place in another (African) country though. Though it used reprecussions of the first arc, it really did little to advance >Panther's series and plots.

Well, as I stated, the X-Men crossover set the groundwork for what eventually became the marriage of the Panther and Storm, which was not only a major event in the comic but also got a lot of media attention, so I find it hard to see how it didn't advance the series. It also addressed and resolved the conflict with that General from the neighboring country who was introduced in the first 4-issue story arc.

> True, but the House of M played much stronger into their genre than it did with Panther's.
> >

That may be, but I was addressing your statement that the X-Men hadn't participated in a crossover for 5 years prior to crossing over with the Panther.

> Both are cult favorites, though. I'm not saying they kept the title afloat so much as they were used (poorly) to draw attention to he book.
>
> And to clarify, I'm not against attempts to use guest stars to draw attention to the book. What I do object to is the extent to which it's being done, so much so that it's undermined the book. I recognize that it's commercially wise to do so, but feel that it's a creative failure to do so.
>

Okay, but please explain to me how having an issue showing the Hulk dancing in a disco -- as Priest did -- helped advance the title or helped tell us something about the Panther's world.


> > > Because there are so many that they detact from the actual title, and come so close together that they prevent any stories about Panther's world.
> > >
> >
> > The Panther's title, even when written by Priest, has always alternated between him being in Wakanda and the rest of the world. The X-Men crossover took place in Wakanda, as did the issues leading up to and including the wedding. If you go back and look at the Priest issues -- and I'm only citing those since they're the ones most critics of this run set as the standard -- you'll see that quite a few of those issues took place outside of Wakanda.
>
> I understand that, and yes he used guest stars often. But he used them as foils for Panther, and to advance the plots and expand upon the supporting cast. Guest stars under Priest contributed to the series, rather than slowed it down or detracted (I'm not counting the Falcon, >Iron Fist, Goliath and Cage teamup. That was just wacky fun).

So Priest gets a "pass" for the Falcon-Iron Fist-Goliath-Cage -showing up from out of nowhere issue? When he does it its wacky fun, but when Hudlin does it its poorly using guest-characters to draw attention to the book? Kinda seems like a double-standard.:-)

> > As I pointed out in my earlier reply, Amazing Spider-Man spent nine issues tieing in to CIVIL WAR. That's almost a year. FANTASTIC FOUR spent eight issues. And I'd be willing to bet you that there was some drop off in sales after the tie-in issues ended. That's typical of ANY series, not just Black Panther.
>
> Spider-Man and Fantastic Four had more crossover issues because Civil War had a far greater impact on their title characters. Civil War's >impact on Pasnther was (sadly) largely peripheral.

I'd say that CIVIL WAR had a very great impact on IRON MAN and CAPTAIN AMERICA, and yet Iron Man had 2 Civil War tie-in issues, and Captain America had 4 -- so why'd SPIDER-MAN and the FF need 9 and 8 months worth of tie-ins?


>
> And again, it;s not just Civil War. It's House of M, the X-Men crossover, the poor teamup with Cage et all, the wedding, all these things have been used in one manner or another to prop up the series while contributing little to the series. World Tour might have well never happened for all the pay off we got.
> >
Well, I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by pay off. Our differing tastes is probably why we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, but here's my view. I felt the World Tour storyline was important because it explored how T'Challa is viewed by the other members of royalty in the Marvel Universe. I especially liked the issue where he went to Atlantis, because Namor made it clear that T'Challa was the only figure in the international community that had the respect from the other nations of the world to mount a challenge to the CIVIL WAR related events going on in the United States at that time (i.e. superhero registration).

> > And if tieing in to crossovers means a writer isn't giving his title character the development that he should, does that mean that the writers of Spider-Man and the FF are also guilty of what you're saying Hudlin is guilty of?
>
> No, because they haven't used crossovers and gurest stars to the same extent, or damage (after a fashion) that Hudlin has. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain the editors mandated the involvement of Spider-Man and >FF, they didn't for Panther.

I doubt that the editors mandated that Spider-Man and the FF had to spend nine and eight issues (respectively) tieing in to Civil War. The Civil War series itself was only seven issues. Incidentally, Tom Brevoort and Joe Quesada have both stated that when they do these series that no writer is mandated to participate. Priest himself said that when Marvel was doing MAXIMUM SECURITY, has invited to include the Panther, but not required to do so. He choose to because he knew it would give the series a boost.

> >
> > Big crossover events like CIVIL WAR and the like usually increase sales on related titles. That's why they do them. And I don't think the Panther title should be held to a double-standard just for doing what virtually every other mainstream Marvel title does. And again, I ask this respectfully, do you honestly know for a fact that the Panther title has more guest stars and does more crossovers than any other Marvel title? I'd really like to see proof of that.
>
> House of M, the X-Men crossover, Two the Hard Way, the lead up to the wedding and Civil War. That's alot more than any character save for >Wolverine and Spider-Man.

I may be wrong here, but I think that's a perception you have based on not knowing how many other series utilize crossovers and guest-stars. I mean, unless you actually read every other mainstream Marvel title and you know how many crossovers each of those titles have participated in and how many guest-stars have appeared in every issue of all of those titles, can you say for a fact that BLACK PANTHER does it more than any other title?

Just off the top of my head, the THUNDERBOLTS title has tied into both House of M and CIVIL WAR and has guest-stars in almost every issue. The first three issues of HEROES FOR HIRE were all Civil War tie-ins, and that title has three WORLD WAR HULK tie-ins scheduled, more than any other Non-Hulk starring title. Plus, they routinely feature guest-stars in almost every issue.

>
> I agree my complaints make little commercial sense, that's why I stated that the book IMO was a creative failure on it's own merits, >because it fails to retain those readers that the crossovers brought
> in.

Well, as I stated, its commonplace that sales go down on any title after a crossover has ended. I'd like to see an example of where that hasn't happened.

I enjoy debating with you. If nothing else, it makes me think.:-)

> > > > I understand, and know that you're a good guy. To be honest, that's why I decided against continueing this thread, up until the rodent troll problem. Though I disagree with both you and Primetime on some matters, extended debate on the matters would be sour grapes, as you enjoy the series and I don't.
> > > > >
> > > Thanks much, I appreciate that.
> >
> > No prob. Respectful, intelligent debate is hard to come by sometimes. >Gotta give it to get it, and deserve it.
>
> Amen.
>
> >
> > It took place in another (African) country though. Though it used reprecussions of the first arc, it really did little to advance >Panther's series and plots.
>
> Well, as I stated, the X-Men crossover set the groundwork for what eventually became the marriage of the Panther and Storm, which was not only a major event in the comic but also got a lot of media attention, so I find it hard to see how it didn't advance the series. It also addressed and resolved the conflict with that General from the neighboring country who was introduced in the first 4-issue story arc.

But did they really need a crossover for that? The thing seemed to tread water with the random appearance of Dragon Man, Red Ghost and his super apes rebelling all of a sudden. I think they were trying to justify the story more than they were actually trying to reignite the Storm/T'Challa romance.
>
> > True, but the House of M played much stronger into their genre than it did with Panther's.
> > >
>
> That may be, but I was addressing your statement that the X-Men hadn't participated in a crossover for 5 years prior to crossing over with the Panther.

Sorry, should have been clearer. I meant a direct crossover. You had to buy issues of both Panther and X-Men (a well selling title) to get the entire crossover. That hadn't been done in years (hell, most books have stopped doing that).
>
> > Both are cult favorites, though. I'm not saying they kept the title afloat so much as they were used (poorly) to draw attention to he book.
> >
> > And to clarify, I'm not against attempts to use guest stars to draw attention to the book. What I do object to is the extent to which it's being done, so much so that it's undermined the book. I recognize that it's commercially wise to do so, but feel that it's a creative failure to do so.
> >
>
> Okay, but please explain to me how having an issue showing the Hulk dancing in a disco -- as Priest did -- helped advance the title or helped tell us something about the Panther's world.

Because it was a part of Erik Killomnger's behind the scenes campaign to lure T'Challa back to Wakanda for a confrontation. Plus, it gave him a good angle to introduce Queeny in a dramatic and amusing manner. Queen Justice then went on to become a vital supporting cast member, following the characterization we were given when she faced down the Hulk.
>
>
> > > > Because there are so many that they detact from the actual title, and come so close together that they prevent any stories about Panther's world.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The Panther's title, even when written by Priest, has always alternated between him being in Wakanda and the rest of the world. The X-Men crossover took place in Wakanda, as did the issues leading up to and including the wedding. If you go back and look at the Priest issues -- and I'm only citing those since they're the ones most critics of this run set as the standard -- you'll see that quite a few of those issues took place outside of Wakanda.
> >
> > I understand that, and yes he used guest stars often. But he used them as foils for Panther, and to advance the plots and expand upon the supporting cast. Guest stars under Priest contributed to the series, rather than slowed it down or detracted (I'm not counting the Falcon, >Iron Fist, Goliath and Cage teamup. That was just wacky fun).
>
> So Priest gets a "pass" for the Falcon-Iron Fist-Goliath-Cage -showing up from out of nowhere issue? When he does it its wacky fun, but when Hudlin does it its poorly using guest-characters to draw attention to the book? Kinda seems like a double-standard.:-)

Well, it's not a double standard when one writer is better ;\)

The difference is that for Priest, it was an exception. With Hudlin, it's the rule.
>
> > > As I pointed out in my earlier reply, Amazing Spider-Man spent nine issues tieing in to CIVIL WAR. That's almost a year. FANTASTIC FOUR spent eight issues. And I'd be willing to bet you that there was some drop off in sales after the tie-in issues ended. That's typical of ANY series, not just Black Panther.
> >
> > Spider-Man and Fantastic Four had more crossover issues because Civil War had a far greater impact on their title characters. Civil War's >impact on Pasnther was (sadly) largely peripheral.
>
> I'd say that CIVIL WAR had a very great impact on IRON MAN and CAPTAIN AMERICA, and yet Iron Man had 2 Civil War tie-in issues, and Captain America had 4 -- so why'd SPIDER-MAN and the FF need 9 and 8 months worth of tie-ins?

'Cause JMS is a political chip on his shoulder? *shrugg*
>
>
> >
> > And again, it;s not just Civil War. It's House of M, the X-Men crossover, the poor teamup with Cage et all, the wedding, all these things have been used in one manner or another to prop up the series while contributing little to the series. World Tour might have well never happened for all the pay off we got.
> > >
> Well, I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by pay off. Our differing tastes is probably why we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, but here's my view. I felt the World Tour storyline was important because it explored how T'Challa is viewed by the other members of royalty in the Marvel Universe. I especially liked the issue where he went to Atlantis, because Namor made it clear that T'Challa was the only figure in the international community that had the respect from the other nations of the world to mount a challenge to the CIVIL WAR related events going on in the United States at that time (i.e. superhero registration).

Yet that challenge went nowhere. There's been no pay off to a story despite how it was solicted as a Civil War tie in.
>
> > > And if tieing in to crossovers means a writer isn't giving his title character the development that he should, does that mean that the writers of Spider-Man and the FF are also guilty of what you're saying Hudlin is guilty of?
> >
> > No, because they haven't used crossovers and gurest stars to the same extent, or damage (after a fashion) that Hudlin has. Furthermore, I'm fairly certain the editors mandated the involvement of Spider-Man and >FF, they didn't for Panther.
>
> I doubt that the editors mandated that Spider-Man and the FF had to spend nine and eight issues (respectively) tieing in to Civil War. The Civil War series itself was only seven issues. Incidentally, Tom Brevoort and Joe Quesada have both stated that when they do these series that no writer is mandated to participate. Priest himself said that when Marvel was doing MAXIMUM SECURITY, has invited to include the Panther, but not required to do so. He choose to because he knew it would give the series a boost.

Well, there's what they say, and what goes on behind closed doors ;\)

Joe Q also said dead is dead, and that Freedom Ring is an excellent example of Marvel diversity (FR was gay, and violently killed a month later).
>
> > >
> > > Big crossover events like CIVIL WAR and the like usually increase sales on related titles. That's why they do them. And I don't think the Panther title should be held to a double-standard just for doing what virtually every other mainstream Marvel title does. And again, I ask this respectfully, do you honestly know for a fact that the Panther title has more guest stars and does more crossovers than any other Marvel title? I'd really like to see proof of that.
> >
> > House of M, the X-Men crossover, Two the Hard Way, the lead up to the wedding and Civil War. That's alot more than any character save for >Wolverine and Spider-Man.
>
> I may be wrong here, but I think that's a perception you have based on not knowing how many other series utilize crossovers and guest-stars. I mean, unless you actually read every other mainstream Marvel title and you know how many crossovers each of those titles have participated in and how many guest-stars have appeared in every issue of all of those titles, can you say for a fact that BLACK PANTHER does it more than any other title?

Yeah, observation is handy in that regard ;\)
>
> Just off the top of my head, the THUNDERBOLTS title has tied into both House of M and CIVIL WAR and has guest-stars in almost every issue. The first three issues of HEROES FOR HIRE were all Civil War tie-ins, and that title has three WORLD WAR HULK tie-ins scheduled, more than any other Non-Hulk starring title. Plus, they routinely feature guest-stars in almost every issue.

Again, it's not just Civil War. It's House of M, the X-Men crossover, etc.


>
> >
> > I agree my complaints make little commercial sense, that's why I stated that the book IMO was a creative failure on it's own merits, >because it fails to retain those readers that the crossovers brought
> > in.
>
> Well, as I stated, its commonplace that sales go down on any title after a crossover has ended. I'd like to see an example of where that hasn't happened.

It's not just crossovers, though, when Marvel was selling subscriptions to Wolverine, they offered free subscriptions to Panther, and the series started out with an A-list artist.

Marvel's put considerable effort into the series, yet nothing sticks. IMO, that's why it's a creative failure.
>
> I enjoy debating with you. If nothing else, it makes me think.:-)

Whoo to thinking!


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