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Subj: Re: Dude...?
Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 09:06:15 pm EST
Reply Subj: Re: Dude...?
Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 05:36:41 pm EST
> > > > > > > > This was probobly my favorite battle from the DC vs. Marvel mini, it felt Right!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > For reasons I already explained!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thor is a real God and used his experience and abilities to win this fight in a plausible and convincing manner, unlike a lot of the other fights going on....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cap is a Kid who can tap into certain gifts, I had no problem with this fight
> > > >
> > > > Lord Majestros:
> > > > CM opting to turn himself into Billy when there was ZERO reason for him to do so was very contrived and took away from the fight as this decision was key to Thor's eventual win. Basically, the writer seemed fixated on the point of Thor blocking the lightning with Mjolnir (primarily it seems so that Wonder Woman could end up with it) and didn't really seem to care how he got to that point. On top of that, outside of Giffen (who writes the Marvels as naive morons) and whoever wrote the first Eclipsed Supes/Cap fight, CM is hardly written as just a kid with gifts.
> > >
> > > Comics are just full of plot contrivances like this, As I said I'm sure CM has made silly decisions like that before
> > Lord Majestros:
> > In this example, CM CAN'T get loose and is being crushed and the ONLY chance he has of getting loose is to change back. Note, he even says, "Only one possible way--to save myself--!". Sorry, but being held by someone that is strong enough to crush you and you CAN'T get loose and being caught up in something you can tear through like tissue paper aren't even in the same ballpark ;-p. In "Legends" trying to change so he might be small enough to escape was the only choice he had, in "Marvel vs DC" he had another choice, just rip through the steel. If the choice is either change back to Billy or be crushed to death, changing to Billy is wise. If the choice is changing to Billy to escape being immobilized to avoid losing OR staying CM to escape being immobilized and to losing, changing to Billy isn't even remotely the wise decision. Yes, I know comic characters don't always do the smart thing, but that doesn't make silly stuff any less silly. ESPECIALLY when it's the key to the outcome of a fight.
> Well just imagine like any other comic book character who is in that predicament that Billy is not infallible and not using Solomons wisdom, which he doesn't always, or that that wisdom can give him a suggestion that turns out not to be so wise in the event!
> Is it wise in the Macro-man example to change to billy when that fist has got you pinned and is crushing you relentlessly? No it is not. It's suicidal on the face of it.
> But at that moment in that situation Billy thinks it's the best decision. He is not infallible and neither is he mature and experienced enough to have a point of reference to draw upon unlike say Superman or Thor who have fought innumerable battles and can adapt immediatly to a problem....
Well, given that the lightning can and has damaged people and things Billy is close to when he changes (see most recent fight with Elipsed Superman for a good example). As CM, he was being crushed and he couldn't break the grip. He doesn't have heat vision or cold breath like Supes, so the lightning was his only option. If he stays CM, he gets crushed and dies. With the lightning there is chance the bolt will not only make him small enough to slip out but also make Macro-Man loosen his grip. Basically, it's a last ditch effort to save himself. Try something that MIGHT save you or try nothing and die. So again, turning into Billy with Macro-Man was the only alternative he had or do nothing and die. With Thor, he had another alternative that just so happens wouldn't have lead to Thor winning AND Wonder Woman ending up with Thor's hammer. Is Solomon's wisdom perfect, no. However, Billy's not usually written as a thick-headed teen either, he usually has a pretty good head on his shoulders. Also, I've seen CM trapped by something several times in continuity and what does he try to do first, break free. Even in the "Legends" example, he tried to turn to Billy because he COULD NOT get loose as CM. Also, note, per the "First Thunder" limited (which is in continuity), Superman hasn't been a hero much longer than Billy (Bats and Supes debuted in Gotham and Metropolis less than a year before CM came on the scene). The "He's young and inexperienced" thing with CM really doesn't hold water. Again, he's not Ultraverse's Prime, and outside of Giffen he's really not portrayed as the dopey teen that happens to have the body of a super powered adult. As for Supes vs Cap adapting to a situation, see scan (and this was in Supes's own book).
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