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The Last Word

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Subj: Re: Marvel v. DC (Herc v. WW), from below
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 05:27:43 pm EDT (Viewed 1 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Marvel v. DC (Herc v. WW), from below
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 04:04:52 pm EDT (Viewed 104 times)

> > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> I agree with the above. I do think the strength levels are relatively equal.
> It seems that Kurt Busiek and George Perez meant to explain WHY DC characters are a bit stronger (and faster) by stating that the DC Earth is larger... however any difference in strength between the peers (Thor, Herc, WW, Supes) is probably negligible and, IMO, not very evident in a fight AT ALL.

I concur.

> > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time.
> *IF* she ever fought him with the intent to put him down then maybe we would see that. As it stands there has never been a confrontation between the 2 premier DC heroes where Diana set out to demolish Superman. In both of their major fights her intent was to save him while doing her best to survive and not harm him.

But here's my point -- if that's true, then doesn't that render DC's stated position that Supes is no. 1, which you've repeatedly referenced, false?

> > Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point.
> But it doesn't miss the point. If 2 speedsters are racing and one is giving his all and the other is not then how can you properly determine which is faster??
> > That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him
> Has he ever bested her? In both of their fights his mission was to kill her. He failed. In both of their fights her mission was to free him and she succeeded. That is a win.

Then that means that DC editorials are false. Frankly, I don't think they mean anything. But you can't use them in support of the argument that she's his physical equal, when if she was his physical equal she'd clobber him, thus rendering DC's official opinion regarding their relative status false.

> > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> Which doesn't make any sense because CM & BA share the same source of speed as Diana. It also doesn't make sense because they lack all of her other abilities (truth, illusions, empathy, telepathy, astral projection/teleportation, enhanced senses).

First, that's not true, as Trials of Shazam has not been retconned. Second, and I am unsure about this, does the Captain Marvel power make the bearer as strong as Hercules, or does it imbue the bearer with the strength of Hercules? These are not the same thing. For example, Captain Marvel was turned inside out by a ray blast, but the durability of Achilles restored him. That doesn't mean that Achilles would react to the blast exactly the same way, however. I am, however, not sure as to what the post-crisis evidence states regarding this point. Third, I don't think there's any evidence countering the amplification of CM's abilities by the power of Zeus. Indeed, if CM had the power of Zeus in its literal form, he'd have possessed all of Zeus's abilities, not just lightning.

> As far as Thor goes JLA/Avengers showed Diana to be stronger than Wonder Man who in turn is ALMOST as strong as Thor. Logic then dictates that Diana and Thor are at least equals in strength.

Not quite. First, armwresting isn't necessarily based on strength, although strength is a component. Second, WW didn't beat Thor -- you can't necessarily conclude that she's as strong as Thor, who's stronger than WM, just because she was stronger than WM.

I think the differences are small, but I think they're tangible.

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