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The Last Word

Subj: Re: Marvel v. DC (Herc v. WW), from below
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 08:24:07 pm EDT (Viewed 51 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Marvel v. DC (Herc v. WW), from below
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 05:27:43 pm EDT (Viewed 1 times)

> But here's my point -- if that's true, then doesn't that render DC's stated position that Supes is no. 1, which you've repeatedly referenced, false?

No, because ultimately when push comes to shove Superman will be "it."

Isn't your argument about CM being his equal then ALSO counterproductive to Superman being #1?

> Then that means that DC editorials are false. Frankly, I don't think they mean anything. But you can't use them in support of the argument that she's his physical equal, when if she was his physical equal she'd clobber him, thus rendering DC's official opinion regarding their relative status false.

You only don't think that because it doesn't support your argument.

The fact of the matter is Superman has tried to kill Wonder Woman TWICE. If he was THAT much more powerful than her then he would have succeeded -- no amount of skill can compensate for THAT much strength and THAT much speed... she HAS to be highly durable to withstand his punches, she has to be fast enough to engage him and she has to be strong enough to hurt him.

> First, that's not true, as Trials of Shazam has not been retconned.

Irrelevant. Trials of Shazam deals with Freddy's power source NOT Billy & Mary. Therefore the points still stand.

> Second, and I am unsure about this, does the Captain Marvel power make the bearer as strong as Hercules, or does it imbue the bearer with the strength of Hercules? These are not the same thing. For example, Captain Marvel was turned inside out by a ray blast, but the durability of Achilles restored him. That doesn't mean that Achilles would react to the blast exactly the same way, however.

How do you know that? For all we know it wasn't Achilles power but the magical body that was protected from the blast.

Captain Marvels form is not Billy. Billy is a 16 year old boy -- he doesn't literally turn into an adult... i.e, that isn't what Billy will look like when he's older. The form of Captain Marvel is Billy's idealized form: his father. The body of Captain Marvel is a magical construct. The "inside out" scene from JLA could be as simple as the magical properties of the body itself...

> I am, however, not sure as to what the post-crisis evidence states regarding this point. Third, I don't think there's any evidence countering the amplification of CM's abilities by the power of Zeus. Indeed, if CM had the power of Zeus in its literal form, he'd have possessed all of Zeus's abilities, not just lightning.

He has a portion of the Power of Zeus. That was explained in the Power of Shazam series as the lightning and the power to hold the magical form (i.e., he changed his costume).

As far as Hercules goes: Shazam approached the demi God who agreed to grant him THAT portion of his own power. So, yes, the source of strength for Captain Marvel is the exact equal of Hercules.

> Not quite. First, armwresting isn't necessarily based on strength, although strength is a component.

You're right. It is also based on stamina. However Wonder Woman also bested Wonder Man in completely different scene, placed Hercules in a choke hold he couldn't free himself from, broke through Quasars constructs, walked all over the Wrecking Crew, etc... hell, she even engaged Thor..

> Second, WW didn't beat Thor -- you can't necessarily conclude that she's as strong as Thor, who's stronger than WM, just because she was stronger than WM.

The difference between Thor and Wonder Man is minimal. Therefore since Wonder Woman is strongER than Wonder Man than she should be, at least, equal to Thor.

> I think the differences are small, but I think they're tangible.

Thor lost to Superman... and a Superman who wasn't even trying to kill him.