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Post By
J

In Reply To
Braugi

Subj: Re: continuity supports Ben Grimm being competitive with the Hulk in strength...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:51:47 pm EDT (Viewed 46 times)
Reply Subj: continuity supports Ben Grimm being competitive with the Hulk in strength...
Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 at 03:42:32 pm EDT


> >
> doesn't mean they're equal...

That's nonsense. Ben Grimm was never a top tier strength character.

Poor example, even for you.


> > > There was a brief period where Wonder Man was depicted as a peer to Thor in strength. That period was short lived, however, and it was made clear that he's more in Abomination's league in his fight with Bommy and not in the Thor/Gladiator class (as shown by Simon's showing and Thor 2's showing immediately following).
> >
> > Nothing was made clear other than Wonder Man is solid Class 100 character in the same tier as characters like Thor & Hercules.
> >
> > > not by brute strength, but by Thor charging through Superman's EP
> >
> > Uhm, okay.
> >
> > > Superman has been consistently portrayed as CLEARLY stronger than Diana, throughout post crisis continuity.
> >
> > Point me to an issue that shows Diana failing to perform a feat that Superman succeeds at.
> >
> > Continuity SUPPORTS Superman & Wonder Woman being competitive in strength.
> >
> > I have provided you with scans, issue #s, writer commentary, editors notes, secret file issues... you provide nothing than an opinion.
> >
> > You will have to excuse me for choosing to following what is IN PRINT rather than what you want it to be.
> >
> > > Captain Marvel has been portrayed as Superman's equal in strength, or so close that there is functionally no difference.
> >
> > Tell that to Captain Marvel when he lost BADLY to Superman -- remember that? When Superman beat him so bad he couldn't go on... thats REALLY equality there!!!
> >
> > > I can call myself the strongest guy in the U.S. all I want, but if Shane Hammon (or other Olympic weightlifter) wrestle and its CLEAR he's stronger than I am, then which is correct?
> >
> > You and these silly real world analogies. But, if it makes you happy...
> >
> > If Shane is giving his all and you are not then how is it that someone can state Shane is more powerful?
> >
> > > These are facts you can NOT dismiss. You might not like that ACTUAL SHOWINGS don't jibe with the way you want things to go, and with the statements in the comic, and you might choose to ignore that CM has always been portrayed as Superman's equal and Wonder Woman has not for your own personal reasons, but the fact remains that it has happened consistently and is in continuity.
> >
> > Please. You provide no in comic evidence at all. This is simply your own personal bias.
> >
> > Show me scans. Provide actual issue #s and I will scan then so you don't have the excuse of "I don't have a scanner."
> >
> > > I take a hard line stance on DATA, and the viability of DATA. I have a slight preference for a few characters, but quite frankly, I DON'T like Captain Marvel (DC) and I HAVE consistently liked Wonder Woman in post crisis continuity. This does NOT change how they have been portrayed consistently over the past 20 years!
> >
> > Uh huh.
> >
> > > I am a scientist by trade and ALWAYS take the data and analyze it without regard to personal preference. YOUR love for Wonder Woman has consistently colored your perception of things...that you've swayed several members on this board despite overwhelming evidence that she IS definitively beneath Superman in strength is somewhat distressing...
> >
> > Explain WHY DC would list them as equals. Just curious... I guess I swayed DC, too??
> >
> >
> > > > > I'm creating another comic book...in this one, Hercules is as strong as Angus McAskill...maybe lift a little over a ton (Angus lifted a 2800lb anchor and walked with it). In it, he lost an armwrestling match to Angus...his only defeat in a contest of strength in all his centuries of life.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, Captain Marvel (DC) is equal in strength to Hercules...if he's equal in strength to MY Hercules, then Spider Man is stronger than Captain Marvel...
> > > > >
> > > > > So, are you saying that Spider Man is stronger than Captain Marvel (DC)?
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm creating a comic book company...right now, I'm drawing it out. My main character is the Hercules from myth,and he's the god of strength...he's been getting stronger all these years and can't function on Earth anymore because he's too strong...if he pushes off too hard when walking around, he'll send the Earth out of orbit accidentally...so he has to stay on Olympus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, there was an instance where a binary system was going to collapse in on itself, the stars would have formed a black hole that would have grown rapidly, created a wormhole, and crushed Earth...to protect his home planet, Herc showed up on one star's surface, caught the other one, and threw it across the universe casually.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know in the crossover I'd like to write with DC, he'd use his pinky finger to overpower Wonder Woman and Superman at the same time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is MY Hercules not as strong as Wonder Woman because somebody in DC says she's 'stronger than Hercules'?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > and that Diana is NOT as strong as Superman. Now, you can make the arguement that the Power of Zeus augments the strength of Hercules to some degree to make CM stronger, but thats an indication that Diana may not be stronger than DC Hercules.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, I think Diana IS roughly equal to DC Hercules in strength, and probably very slightly stronger.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The difference is, DC Hercules is NOT Marvel Hercules...they're 2 very different characters, just as Captain Marvel (DC) is not the same as any of the Captain Marvel's in the Marvel Universe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As such, a comparison of Wonder Woman to Marvel Hercules when you're looking at a statement about a DC character doesn't work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the writers are FORGETTING what DC has already established to be Canon for Wonder Woman. Provide all the scans you want, but until they print a retraction &/or Ret-Con of "stronger than Hercules", then you have to live with it. Stop whining. Writer's & sketchers aren't bound by the rules that govern what DC states are the limitations for the characters, which is why they've had to print so many retractions & think up so many ret-cons in the past. DC states what they feel is fact about the character, but they refuse to insist that the writers and pencillers stick to those limitations, thus the constant need for retractions/ret-cons.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can't possibly be so dense as to not realize this after THIS long?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sheesh.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ...although Marvels Hercules was shown to not have actually performed them all on his own...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Under Perez, DCU Heracles claimed he never performed his bigger feats. Not only this, but DC has ever showed him doing any of them in the first place under any storytelling material, like flashbacks.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Obviously, since you dont consider *any* material revelant for Marvel Hercules, i want to know why you are giving such credit for the DCU Hercules, when what we have of him, and his past exploits, is actually considerable less information than his Marvel counterpart.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thats strike one. Lets look at strike two:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Marvel Hercules has done them all as per the continuity in his universe. The only one that has been a contention for doubt, going back and forth over the decades of publication has been the stables feat. Under Marvel current continuity (and we all know another writer will retcon it again) this particular labour marks his first meeting ever, bewteen Hercules and Gilgamesh.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lets end wih strike three, for the "oh he had assist sometimes" cryout:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The whole notion that because Athena and Hermes walked around and assisted him directly in something like 3 of the 10/12 labours, is nothing but pure bias, given how Wonder Woman rarely sports a single high feat *withou* direct assist from her teammates.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, i want to know, why you attack one character that had some assist, but are appearantly fine with Wonder Woman getting help, in nearly every major feat.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In conclusion, and this is no novelty in reality, both Myth and Marvel Hercules are stronger than both Wonder Woman and DCU Heracles.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What part of "stronger than Hercules" do you not understand?
> > > > > > > > > > Until DC retracts that in entirety, you MUST accept it as part of the established CANNON of the character.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Stop quibbling with known facts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This is a forum that requires PROOF above simple statements, Defensor. Can you provide me proof from the comics have her being consistantly stronger than the DC version?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You want facts, dont you? Hercules has been rated higher than Hulk in some Handbook editions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There, hes stronger than Hulk.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > telling everyone, that just because her theme is in comparation with "her" Hercules, that shows up in "her" title that is "different" than other versions, that she is automatically stronger than every version out there, even when she doesnt match up in feats?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dont be assasine.You are shooting rigth down at your own foot, with one of the most flawed debate logic you can have around.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > J, just said some posts ago that he doesnt validate Marvel Hercule`s history and featology even when he got ON panel treatment in that regard while DCU "Hercules" does not. And thats a fact.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But seems that both of you care little about facts, dont you?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wonder Woman Volume One #105, reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek gods by Athena - "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yeah, there really IS NO DOUBT, Wonder Woman IS stronger than Hercules. Straight from DC. 'Nuff said.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh . . . Hercules from DC is NOT the same as Hercules from Marvel.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no question that Marvel's strongest roughly equal D.C.'s strongest, and that Herc is probably as strong (or almost as strong, or stronger than) WW. I hate that it's the case, because I find DC feats to be pretty silly, and long for the days when the most you might ever accomplish is pushing over a building.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, we know from JLA v. Avengers that Thor is roughly equal to Supes, and that Herc is roughly equal to Thor. To the extent WW is as strong as Supes, she's as strong as Thor and Herc. I don't buy that she's as strong as any of them, personally, for reasons that are pretty obvious. If WW is as strong as Supes but more skilled, then she should beat him every time. Arguing a la J that she's never gone all out against him simply misses the point. That is, arguing that she's never gone all out against him explains why she's never beaten him, but it doesn't explain DC's position that Supes is top dog, i.e., if she is his physical equal, then DC's position that Supes is top dog is false. You can't have it both ways, citing DC editorial as canon yet pointing to the fact of her superior skills. She's either very skilled and not as strong, or DC's not telling the truth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly, I think she's not as strong, but in the ballpark, not as durable, not as fast, but a way better fighter, and consequently just as formidable. Supes, CM, BA, Herc and Thor, however, are slightly above her pay grade.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >