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Post By
Nucleon

In Reply To
RodimusPrime

Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,200
Subj: Re: In All Due Respects...
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 at 04:17:49 pm EDT (Viewed 163 times)
Reply Subj: Re: In All Due Respects...
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 at 02:52:37 pm EDT (Viewed 85 times)



    Quote:
    And that is why you seem so off base in these debates at times. You simply ignore what is printed in the actual comics, and just go by what you think a character should do, instead of how they actually operate.


I do not ignore them; I take them at second-degree, as if told by a subjective author - which is exactly the case. And I do think that I am representative of a less vocal group of interlocutors on this point.


    Quote:
    The only thing, and ONLY thing that has been effective against Superboy Prime is BFR, and that is a temporary solution at best, because, just like he says, he always comes back. Even when his weakness to red-sun radiation was played against him, it took two Supermen to take him down, one died, and the other was powerless for a year.


There is a lot of tricks that could have been used, that weren't. I suggested many all over this thread and received no feedback so I won't repeat them there. The plot of the story being to show that SBP is invincible, it would have been kind of useless to see him taken out by a mentalist at the end of issue one, right?

Well, there no harm in that, but as a buyer, I personally require that some semblance of rationality is observed; Apocalypse was a much more believable threat than SPB, even is was undoubtely inferior in magnitude, because he was equipped to face about about any attack, including mental ones. And he had a reason for it, a concept that permitted it without suspending disbelief like SBP does. I mean, punching throught reality? Come on.


    Quote:
    And no, the writers don't just look at the concepts alone, and base their stories off of that.



Then how come characters gain new capacities? How do they forget old ones?



    Quote:
    The concept is always kept in mind, but the continuity is just as integral of a piece of the framework that the character operates in.


"Continuity" refers to the general storyline of any given comic subject so far (and even that proved flexible). Power feats are not continuity. They are subjective applications of concept made to fit a storyline, which in turn becomes continuity.



    Quote:
    You are correct, you have the right to ignore high showings, or stuff that you think doesn't make sense, but if you try to bring that opinion into a debate about comparative powerlevels, and the ONLY thing that we have to go on is how the characters actually operate in the comics, then you are fighting a losing battle right from the start.



Did Squirrel Girl beat Thanos? Well, did she beat Doom then? Was Thor pinned down by a mast? Did Hulk almost got owned by a snake? Was Superman controlled by a carny? Yet, if you picked Squirrel Girl in a tournament, I doubt people are going to buy how she beats the other guy's Thanos. Same thing for Firelord and Spiderman. Or for Dazzler and Galactus. Or for any other schnitz that has ever been printed. consciously or not.

... You bet I am correct.


    Quote:
    He's resisted everything thats been thrown at him. It's not like they are dumbing down the characters to make him seem better. They stuff him in the Phantom Zone for crying out loud. NONE OF IT STOPPED HIM! That is what you are ignoring.


DC has been "impressing" me like that for some while now. Yet, not so far ago, after COIE, they actually made some sense, with the televised serie and such.... but now they seem to fall back into irrationality big time. Well, if it sells, who am I to oppose it?



    Quote:
    They aren't trying to glorify an icon, as you always try to say about DC. In fact, they are defiling one, you are supposed to hate Superboy Prime. Everything that Superman is to heroes (always stepping up when everyone else fails, getting the job done, and saving the day), Superboy Prime is to villains.

    He is for all intents and purposes unstoppable and unkillable. He's immune to seemingly every attack, even being disassemble atom by atom, he just reformed elsewhere more powerful than ever. It doesn't really matter if YOU think that he's stupid, or YOU think he shouldn't be able to do that. He did it, plain and simple.

    (...) The very point of Superboy is that he is one of the greatest threats that these characters will ever face... there is no containment, there is no reconciliation, in his mind, power is everything... and he has the power to do anything.


He is made to do exactly what happens here; Awe and rally fans of the Superman franchise, and give them a moral boost in exchange for probably a financial one. Because let's face it; Superman has a thin concept. It would have been much more credible if a knockoff of Brainiac, or Mordru, or Darkseid was made the "SBP" threath instead of a Superman one. These guys could realistically find a way to shake off about any form of assault I can think about more than what is at base a human projectile, but then even the standard Superman was protected from all these things anyway in the same way SBP is, so that's not so much of a surprise.

The only thing new here is that makes appear the rest of the Dc universe as a bit more inept.


    Quote:
    A fight with Surfer would be absolutely no different. If Surfer were to get dogpiled by the GL corps, the Sinestro Corps, and all of Earth's heaby hitters, he would be toast in seconds. Surfer would have gotten his ass handed to him by Sodam Yat.


The Surfer is not made to be invincible. He is not an amped-up monstruosity of brute magnitude like SBP is; He is powerful by virtue of concept, not caricature. The Surfer does not "punch throught realities"; he crosses them at will, because he is part of the Cosmic essence. He is a philosopher and a monk. I don't care that many, many characters are more powerful, or can beat him somehow, he is a beautiful character based on a solid concept. And by that virtue, he would own SBP as soon as the fight does not occur under the protection of the DC umbrella and the strange physics it harbors.


    Quote:
    And anything that he can do with his power, a powerful GL can duplicate. I do think that he's more powerful than all but the elite GLs (like Kyle bottling a supernova), but they are just as versatile as him.


Funny that. The early GLs could only conjure up giant boxing gloves and scoops and were sensible to the colour yellow. Then comes Marvel's silver age, then the GL get rid of their weaknesses and other sillyness to permit them the same amping-up that the Superman brand got. Yet these constructs are limited, not only in magnitude, but also in scope in all the ways I wrote about in the previous post.

What if a telekynesist just take the ring off? What if a GL is mentally compelled to give it? How about a speedster stealing it, or a swordsman chopping it off his fingers? The rings are 24h-or-something charged baubles whereas the Surfer is one with the Cosmic fabric of the Universe. Frankly...


    Quote:
    Yeah, he looks ordinary against Terrax. And Terrax was WTF-pwned by Sentry (a flying brick) in what was it... 13 seconds? Surfer has been shown to be beaten by sufficient physical force before. Do you actually believe that Superboy's punches wouldn't have the necessary effect?



Yeah, and Sentry lost to Hulk whereas the Surfer drains him in two panels. You seem to have a linear understanding about power relations. That's too simplistic for my tastes. I believe in more subtilities, and I thank the powers that be that there are still some place for it in many comics still.


    Quote:
    No, we have no problem defining what Surfer's standard power is, it's right there in the comics, printed for everyone to see. And just like the GLs, for all of his versatility (something that you clearly overstate), when he gets into a fight, he focuses on punching and blasting. Is it dumbing down? One could argue that it is. One could also argue that it is simply the most useful way to apply the power against an opponent. Why use the ammount of power to transmute someone (especially considering Superboy's ability to resist pretty much anything), when you can blast them to dust instead. It is quicker, easier, and more effective.


Yeah, we all can see how effective it is.


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