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Post By
Would be Watcher

Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Nucleon

Subj: Re: Can I?
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 at 07:57:21 pm EDT (Viewed 73 times)
Reply Subj: Can I?
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 at 02:33:38 pm EDT (Viewed 83 times)




    Quote:
    ... if that's possible. GL or surfer can do many tricks but what they lack against SBP grade characters is the power to back those trick. Not that they don't have loads of them already. They do but the other guy has so much more than even they can imagine that they are outgunned. Whatever you want to do to such a foe will have to demand an enormous eneregy toll to have any effect while him doing the usual might get you one shotted.

    Let them drain his obvious energies, then. Let them probe him mentally to know who he is going to attack, and then make that this target becomes intangible, since their rings also operates as a communicating device. Let them create illusions based on what their friend Superman can perceive himself. Make them transmute the yellow sun energy he stored for red sun energy, or BFR him to asector with a red sun. Let a couple of them get invisible to all senses, or to become so small that they can enter SPB's head and blast his brains like the Atom did to Darkseid in "Rock of Ages". Let them travel thought time and space to squeeze the life out of him while he is just born. Let them amp up one of their own's strength, speed and durability themselves if that's the only ticket to a DC victory.


I get the idea, I always did. The problem is many fold.

1. They are versatile, not omnipotent and unopposable. Characters who have ventured into the past or the future generally have important limitations that prevent them to do the obvious retro abortion you suggest. It's not a big suprise no character in comics who has an ongoing can do this. If they can it's the book they should abort and RIGHT now.

2. Probes, illusions, intangibility, energy drains are all opposable. Specially if the host has an awesome sensory host that let him see all spectrum of reality on a macro or microscopic scale and is strong willed or just plain crazy/angry. As for microscopic attacks Atoms already ventured into superman when he was sick with kryptonite and commented that even at the cellular level his cells were "invulnerable". Imagine Prime's cells now... they would be even harder to mess with.

3. Energy drain, by BRF or direct action, is all cool in theory but in practice it's never instantaneous. It should take quite some times to start showing any effect, specially upon a being of that magnitude that sports an armor that protect him for just that kind of thing, and it's a sure bet the victim wouldn't stay idle for long if such a plot would start to be used.

3. Characters that pull into a plot device bank to duplicate effect still have an important limitation. They have limited ressources and ONE source from whitch all the duplicated effect might come from. That means if they use 80% of their ressources to fart some effect they have 20% left to do something else with their power bank. IF they can multi task it of course. It's the down side of characters like Zatanna who can do everything but not all at once at max intensity. If she use ALL her magic to protect herself that doesn't leave her with much to attack with and she ONLY has her magic as a source of power. Same for Thor if he spin his hammer into a protective stance for example. He won't attack and do this at the same time. Same for Hal if he shield bubble himself he has less ressource for offensive use. Nothing created, nothing lost.



    Quote:
    When lanterns were one shotted by Prime you weren't suppose to think they were weak. You were supposed to realise the brat was THAT dangerous. Of course versatility gives you more handles to tackle a problem and thats a great plus. But you still get limited by the energy you can handle to fuel those tricks... lanterns can do anything up to what the ring or their willpower can handle. Same for surfer and the power cosmic. He doesn't have Galactus energy output and is still opposable by guys like thor or Sentry and just by that fact you understand that he doesn't have infinite power either but rather a incredibly hight level. Still someone with a higher scope but less versatility would pose a very tangible threat for him or any lanterns.
     
    I would have no problems with that as long as the "unbeatable threat" wasn't limited to being only strong and durable if he is to be the threat of universal proportions he is supposed to be. But as DC is adamant in proving the Superman "brand" as the one which reigns over all, SBP is conveniently excused from all attacks that could possibly overcome him and his thin concept, but doing that DC makes all of its remaining universe a joke. I say DC because they are the obvious target but Marvel has been doing that a lot lately, too.


Honestly, if you have characters that have books and should beat the tar out of that kind of characters it is them who are "badly" conceived for story purpose from my POV. It's why I prefer the GL's to have some limits both in intensity and versatility. It's when they have wish rings that I think they stinks. Same for speed-force flash or butt power surfer or pre-crisis superman. My point was to make you understand that SBP is WANTED at that level for a reason.


    Quote:

    The power magnitude of a target has nothing to do in turning oneself intangible. Either these GLs were under-achievers, or they didn't have the power fans claim they have. Which one is it?

 
I disagree. Not all kind intangibility necessarilly have the same potency. At low level you could be a mist that could go throught small holes while a more advance form would have your molecules go around other molecules or even switch in another dimension. Depending on the kind of intengibility there could be different approach to counter the power. While fist would be very innefective against a mist form super breath or wind control would be a killer. If it's your molecules that goes around other molecules you would be impervious to punches and wind but characters with the capabilty to see your molecules and attack them with an energy attack could mess you up badly. Not mentioning that your structural integrity would probably be less stable than when you're molecules are binded more tightly. If you switch in a parralel dimension you might be immune to all the previous intances but you might also be in a position where you can't effect those who are in the other dimension. Of course you could have an intangibility that only provides you with positive effects. But in comics, the later is very rare for the same reason time travel is a plot killer.

Also, to answer your other implied question, yes GL's have done all people have claim they could... very sadly IMO. From my point of view the bad writing isn't so much when they don't do all that stuff but when they are said to be capable of this without any down side. Try writing them with a shred of drama after that... if what you wish IS whats the point really?


    Quote:
    I think there is a snobish smell and a tad of bitterness in the taste to people who over-glorify versatility.

    Real heroes are the versatile ones. To be able to write a moderatly successful run, the hero must be able to face different threats and have different ways of taking them on. Power in single-minded magnitude is the province of the vilain, who usually beats the hero in an ealier encounter due to that power magnitude but loses the second encounters because the hero adapts. Now, if "DC physics" permits their characters strength to "punch throught reality", it's all good fun, but don't expect anything outside DC to take that seriously. 


WHAT!? Powers and good stories don't correlate like that. It never has and never will. You can have no power or all the power you want and still end up with a very good story. The problem with the later is it's going to be increasingly hard to keep things exciting and coherent eternally within mainsteam universe. And if what you say was true, silver surfer would only know succesful runs while hulk would have ended at number 10... Reality is Hulk is more popular then ever(god I don't like Loeb right now) and surfer is still non-existant on the market.


    Quote:
    It's not because you can transmute things that they are equally easy to transmute. Characters with higher scope than you might get too hard plain and simple. Same for blasting, punching, disintegrating, statis rays, force constructs or fields etc. In comics nearly everything is opposable and the mightiest power win...

    If that was true, Cap America or Batman would never had won a fight, as a pretty part of their rogue galleries are much more powerful in magnitude than they themselves are. SPB's energy source is obvious; it is an external one, and once it is gone he can't regenerate it himself. It's all there for the taking. But no; Fly-byes and e-blasts ruled, as if they were any efficient anyway.


I was indirectly talking about durability here. If the character defense reach the molecular level and his defenses are backed by more power than you have behind your matter manip I'm sorry but his molecules are probably not going anywhere and you are better of trying to change things around him than him directly...

As for the drain read what I said above. It's doubtfull anybody that is not a reality manipulator could snuff all the energy inside Prime instantly. The amount must be enormous. Not even speaking of the armor. And if you start doing that you would most likely give Prime a sense of urgency... whitch wouldn't be that great an idea if you ask me because even if you could attack him this what he could do to you would most likely be worst. Of course if you have flawless intangibility and absolute energy absorbtion and no limitations and the brat wouldn't go for a pre-crisis butt power farthing moment to save his hide I suppoose you would have all the cards. Still this wouldn't mean you would necessarily be more powerful. You could just be perfectly tailor for that kind of opponent. Sux to be Prime in that case...


    Quote:
    It's often better to have fewer more powerful tricks than plenty less so. Specially if some tricks are somewhat redundant on what they aim to do like compromising body integrity. The best advantages a more versatile character has is usually provided for BFR or indirect attacks that avoid having to met impossible resistance. Of course BFR is easier on character with fewer movement options and lesser durability.


    Total disagreement here, with everything that is written in there. No offenses.


Well your argument here is kinda lightweight. What is preferable? one hell of an attack that nobody could resist (Black bolt, omega force, hulk enraged to apocaliptic level for a month etc.) or some low yield inneficient power that althought more diverse isn't able to pierce the ennemy's defenses? I chose the intensity over versatility with no intensity all the time. Versatility is great if you have a sufficient measure of intensity otherwise it's a waste 99,99% of the time and double that in comics.



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