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Post By
Would be Watcher

Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Nucleon

Subj: Re: Can I?
Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 at 08:38:04 am EDT (Viewed 58 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Can I?
Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 at 10:42:19 pm EDT (Viewed 6 times)




    Quote:
    Okay as this is a long post (thanks for writing it), please assume that I agree with everything I omitted from your own.

    Characters who have ventured into the past or the future generally have important limitations that prevent them to do the obvious retro abortion you suggest.
    SBP is not a time traveller; he is a time-travelled person; he does not have any control on time, nor can he monitor it like a true time traveller, the kind of character that would be protected as you implied.



I wasn't talking about SBP. I was talking about people who had demostrated the ability to somehow travel time.



    Quote:
    Probes, illusions, intangibility, energy drains are all opposable. Specially if the host has an awesome sensory host that let him see all spectrum of reality on a macro or microscopic scale and is strong willed or just plain crazy/angry.

    With the knowledge of Superman's senses, one can create an illusion that covers all the bases -not just the visual spectrum- or a mental one. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that while in battle SPB does not scan every spec of dust that surrounds him. One can also just mental-blasts him.


Well thats one hell of an illusion you have there. The problem with illusions tho is that if they don't make any sense, suddenly appearing in a quiet park and feeling pain at the same time for seemingly no reason, they start shattering because the character will start to doubt and try HARD to find what isn't right in the picture and thats when the sensory powers can help find tge truth. Not to mention you will be expending a constant amount of ressources just to keep the illusion going against a increasingly agitated character.



    Quote:
    As for microscopic attacks Atoms already ventured into superman when he was sick with kryptonite and commented that even at the cellular level his cells were "invulnerable". Imagine Prime's cells now... they would be even harder to mess with.

    Yeah, of course; that trick works on Darkseid, who is but a mere New God, but when comes the time to try it on a stock, displaced alien (that happens to be the company flagship) it doesn't work. Anyway, a brain works with electrical impulses, and if you overload it (even when not destructing brain cells) will cause it to crash. But I suppose Supermen are too though for that, conveniently.


Maybe it's Grant Morrison who should have thought about it first tho. Why is Darkseid brain so easily dammaged that a puny microscopic sting of a laser will messed him up so completely? That doesn't make much sense to begin with when you are that kind of villain. Anyway, superman always was though from cover to cover. Nothing convienient about that it's actually perfectly aligned with past occurences as the character doesn't just have a hard shell with a nouga center. Is inside was always protected.



    Quote:
    Energy drain, by BRF or direct action, is all cool in theory but in practice it's never instantaneous. It should take quite some times to start showing any effect, specially upon a being of that magnitude that sports an armor that protect him for just that kind of thing, and it's a sure bet the victim wouldn't stay idle for long if such a plot would start to be used.

    Just change the colour of his sun energy. Surfer can do it the snap of his fingers, thus turning his insolation armor against him. Why should there be a limit on drains, anyway? Are there any limits on E-blasts or strength?


I absolutely don't doubt an instant that surfer could do that. I however strongly doubt about the celerity of the desired effect tho. There is more chances surfer might get hit VERY hard before his tactic start paying of, and thus interrupt the process or, if prime presses on, end the fight.

As to why should there be a limit on drain or E-blast etc. Well, it stand to reason that it takes longer siphoning a bigger reserve than a smaller one no? It would be suprising that Prime would be instantly powerless considering the scope he opperate on. And yes there are limits to E-Blast or strenght and it's the energy you can handle throught them and have at your disposition. It's why an electric can-opener without any electricity is useless or why having an entire nuclear central just for THAT can-opener would be irrelevant because there is a limit ot the electricity it can handle.



    Quote:
    Characters that pull into a plot device bank to duplicate effect still have an important limitation. They have limited ressources and ONE source from whitch all the duplicated effect might come from. That means if they use 80% of their ressources to fart some effect they have 20% left to do something else with their power bank.

    And if the said energy manipulator has absorbed part of the target power, dosn't his control pool get wider too?



Potentially yes. If the energy he use is also usable by him. But most importantly, would it make a fast enought difference?



    Quote:
    Not all kind intangibility necessarilly have the same potency. At low level you could be a mist that could go throught small holes while a more advance form would have your molecules go around other molecules or even switch in another dimension. Depending on the kind of intengibility there could be different approach to counter the power. While fist would be very innefective against a mist form super breath or wind control would be a killer. If it's your molecules that goes around other molecules you would be impervious to punches and wind but characters with the capabilty to see your molecules and attack them with an energy attack could mess you up badly. Not mentioning that your structural integrity would probably be less stable than when you're molecules are binded more tightly. If you switch in a parralel dimension you might be immune to all the previous intances but you might also be in a position where you can't effect those who are in the other dimension. Of course you could have an intangibility that only provides you with positive effects. But in comics, the later is very rare for the same reason time travel is a plot killer.

    There is actually very few kind of intangibility that a Superman can take on. Intangibility would be the perfect defense, but it can also be the best offense, if somebody has the idea to make SBP intangible, like Shadowcat does. There you go; He has no active control on his molecules, and thus, he is stopped.



Actually apart from the dimensionnal one he could/should and even HAS taken on. He has the ability to see and attack people on a molecular level. When you modify your density you don't cease to exist. Yout molecules are still very much here just more loosely so. When the weird was escaping him by phasing trhought all matter he eventually decide to attack him on the molecular level to still be able to reach him. And the rsult was kinda paimful for weird. Weird was altering his density/molecule frame so it was totally legitimate a counter from superman kind of opponent. If he had been in a paralel dimension superman would have been quite powerless. Would the other guy also have been tho?


    Quote:
    It's not because you can transmute things that they are equally easy to transmute. Characters with higher scope than you might get too hard plain and simple. Same for blasting, punching, disintegrating, statis rays, force constructs or fields etc. In comics nearly everything is opposable and the mightiest power win...

    Transmuting or draining power is more dependant on whether the target control his power source or not; That's what is used as a defense against these. The actual reserve of power is just an indication of how long the processus will take. But once it is engaged, the Taget almost loses anyway, since the power drained is not only substracted from him, but added on it's ennemy as well. And if that energy is transmuted, and he doesn't control it... the target's toast!


It's also dependant on how difficult it would be to mess with the character's strutural integrity. I assume it's easier to mess with aunt May molecules than it would be hulk's. But yes it's most likely just a question of time anyway... the big problem tho is in SBP case you don't have the luxury of that much and the fact he doesn't HAVE to be fancy or crafty or subtle to make you realise time is of the essence.


    Quote:
    My point was to make you understand that SBP is WANTED at that level for a reason.

    I have no problem with ridiculously powerful treaths; There has been many and there will be many more. However, a Superman, even when amped to comical levels, cannot be versatile enough to do the job - unless everyone jobs against him, like it seems the case here.


I disagree. If 99% of your opposition can't survive you more than 30 sec and you can tolerate their combine asault you are a formidable opposition. He has a good degree of versatility it's just not as spectacular as his unmatchable intensity. But whether you can simply pucnh hard or transmute matter and energy you are still in mortal danger when facing that guy unless you have enought defense or the ability to operate from a parralel dimension. I mean since when are ubber threat opposing heroes differently? Even "versatile" Galactus was WWF wrestling with in-betweener. Why is it so different now?



    Quote:
    WHAT!? Powers and good stories don't correlate like that. It never has and never will. You can have no power or all the power you want and still end up with a very good story. The problem with the later is it's going to be increasingly hard to keep things exciting and coherent eternally within mainsteam universe.

    And if what you say was true, silver surfer would only know succesful runs while hulk would have ended at number 10... Reality is Hulk is more popular then ever(god I don't like Loeb right now) and surfer is still non-existant on the market.

    Exactly. That's why the Surfer isn't one of Marvel best seller; At some point it gets too metaphysical. It's simpler when your hero is a flying brick, precisely because such characters possess flaws that cosmic players do not have. On the other hand, the Silver Surfer would do an excellent vilain, as are a good portion of his Cosmic Powered comrades, every one of them would be better at this task than an (yet another) amped-up Superman clone.

    Hulk is currently popular because he fights other heroes. Between you and me, his adventures usually suck.


They really do sux indeed but between you and me the surfer you propose also sux. Even the concept sux big time... IMHO of course.


    Quote:
    I was indirectly talking about durability here. If the character defense reach the molecular level and his defenses are backed by more power than you have behind your matter manip I'm sorry but his molecules are probably not going anywhere and you are better of trying to change things around him than him directly...

    A defense is not that universal; there are many types of defense as there is many types of attacks. Once again, logic dictates that those who have the attack, probably has the defense as well. SBP does not. He is a one trick pony.


True defense isn't totally universal... however if it stops 19 out of 20 of your attacks I say it amounts for a bundle no?

Also, I'm not sure I get you about the last line. Because prime doesn't have energy manip he's vulnerable to energy manip but since surfer does he isn't is what you imply here? Well I'm sorry but having defenses only amount to something if they are enought. Simply having them doesn't mean anything otherwise. Whats really important to know in THIS case is surfer is assaillable where prime will strike... I would also point out that if Doom and Stark, amoung others, have proven capable of siphoning dry surfer before you might be somewhat inflating that line of defense a bit... just saying.


    Quote:
    What is preferable? one hell of an attack that nobody could resist (Black bolt, omega force, hulk enraged to apocaliptic level for a month etc.) or some low yield inneficient power that althought more diverse isn't able to pierce the ennemy's defenses? I chose the intensity over versatility with no intensity all the time. Versatility is great if you have a sufficient measure of intensity otherwise it's a waste 99,99% of the time and double that in comics.

    Versatibility finds a way. I agree that magnitude is important, but versatibility is what makes the hero. I wouldn't buy a comic in which the hero wins by using the same old, same old tactics everytime, being predictible. Spiderman wins over Rhino any day - and not because he is more powerful. Ditto for Batman, Cap America, and about every hero that is worth his salt.


It finds a way IF enought juice backs the can-opener and IF it can handle the juice needed. Otherwise your versatility might be as usefull as changing sox color.



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