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Subj: Re: Absurdity
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 11:46:05 am EST (Viewed 12 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Absurdity
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 10:46:30 am EST (Viewed 102 times)
D: And I disagree completely! If an allout Thor with Hammer charged etc cannot overcome Superman and it takes that squad of Avengers to do the deed it makes no sense at all that they would choose to beat a defeated opponent THAT hard. Heck look at Hercs Mace for an idea of the ferocity packed into that attack - You're saying the Avengers would beat/kill a weakened opponent like that just because he'd rendered Thor unconcious in a fair fight?! That wasn't a scumbag villain like Nefaria or Ultron. I Just Don't agree with the logic.
>>>> I honestly interepreted that scene as this: The Avengers just witnessed their beloved Thor go down. And emotionally, they all piled onto Superman. If you were out with a whole group of your closest friends, and you witnessed one of them get laid out, would you alone get pissed off, or would the whole group collectively get pissed off? I assume everyone close to the person would get angry. That's how the heroes reacted. My honest interpretation.
D: Well turn that around and apply it to Marvel for a second - I've never seen Mangog do anything but beat Thor up... so is he not going to be merely *equal* to Juggernaut or Perrikus for example?
I've never seen any evidence Thor or Namor could even remotely show Sentry's physical superiority over the opponents he's crushed - How am I wrong to say therefore Sentry is clearly way stronger than them?
I have never seen Namor unequivocally lift a mountain whereas The Hulk arguably has shown the capacity to, so is Namor the clear inferior? Ditto Thor etc?
>>>>> When making comparisons, you have to make apples to apples comparisons. Mangog uses brute strength/invulnerability to literally toss Thor around like a rag doll. Plus, you also have to look at the text. I believe it's been explicitly said Mangog is on another level of strength. Look at the interaction. Second, it's possible Sentry is stronger than Thor. The best example is how he virtually stalemated a very strong version of the Hulk. This Hulk was said to be stronger than previous versions, which Thor stalemated. Again, that's character interaction. Third, Namor actually has a feat recently where he supported a whole island. So I don't think he is the clear inferior. I'd say Hulk is stronger, but Namor recently has been getting a push.
D: I only *know* that Namor is as strong as Thor/The Hulk because they have met and fought, Just as I only know Superman & Captain Marvel even out because they have met and fought. Just as I can only call Majestic/Apollo as they too have fought.
>>>>>> But you also know that Thor is relatively equal to Supes because they have fought. And we know Thor = Hercules through their multiple interactions. (arm wrestling draw comes to mind).
D: That is not using provenance and it is not certainly not evaluating the facts between the two given characters. That is what I strongly object to - If I see Superman taking a star exploding on him and him sandwiched between two planets both in the same year among a trend for similar feats stretching back years I then have actual inarguable proof he can survive the Silver Surfers Morg/Ravenous takedowns where he detonates a planet.... whereas with Thor or the Hulk I have no such evidence and no reason to think such a thing possible! It's like arguing Wonderman or Ben Grimm can take a Nuke, where's the reason for even thinking it?
>>>>> Now you're talking durability more than strength. If Hulk takes a nuke, and Ben Grimm dies from it, then I say Hulk has greater durability than Ben Grimm. If Superman lifts a mountain, and Hulk fails to lift a mountain of equal mass, I say Superman is stronger than Hulk. But you have to make apples to apples comparisons when comparing environmental feats. You say, "Superman survived being sandwhiched between two planets. Hulk survived a nuke. Therefore, Superman must be more durable." I say those are not apples to apples comparisons and until we see whether or not Hulk can survive being sandwhiched between two planets of equal mass we simply can't tell who has the greater durability. If you have no apples to apples environmental comparisons, all you can do is go by character interaction! Hulk's durability when fighting Hulk has been shown to be at the least equal to Superman's, therefore, I rate them all relative peers. I have addressed this with you before, and I still have yet to see a counterargument from you on this one specific point.
D: The problem by proxy is if you yourself take crossovers as literal in the way you're doing you still have to accept that Superman logically would crush the Hulk/Namor/Gladiator etc as THEY have never proved as convincingly superior to Thor as Superman eventually did. Thor laid on everything in that fight, and it wasn't enough.
>>>>>> I think Gladiator once knocked Thor out, but that's besides the point. Thor's fights with Hulk/Gladiator have all been very tough. So was his fight with Superman. Thor later said he now had Superman's measure. And Superman acknowledged Thor was a tough opponent, "the toughest he's ever faced". I think given how relatively equally all these interactions have been over the years shows they should be relative peers.
D: If you think Thor somehow rivals Superman physically solely because of JLAvengers that's no buisiness of mine. What i strongly object to is the hopscotch logic you employ to justify the rest. I've seen Wolverine & Samson Match the Hulk - But are they peers?
>>>>>>> You've seen Wolverine match Hulk in a fight. But not in strength. If the publishing company does their job right, you can tell strength levels from character interaction.
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