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Subj: Re: Absurdity
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 02:23:58 pm EST (Viewed 7 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Absurdity
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 10:46:30 am EST (Viewed 103 times)
Quote:And I disagree completely! If an allout Thor with Hammer charged etc cannot overcome Superman and it takes that squad of Avengers to do the deed it makes no sense at all that they would choose to beat a defeated opponent THAT hard. Heck look at Hercs Mace for an idea of the ferocity packed into that attack - You're saying the Avengers would beat/kill a weakened opponent like that just because he'd rendered Thor unconcious in a fair fight?! That wasn't a known scumbag villain like Nefaria or Ultron so the rationale doesn't add up.
How do you conclude that Thor was "allout"? Was Superman likewise "allout"?
And of course, the mace cracking was not something Busiek wrote into the script but was something the artist took liberties to do. Same with Thor's hammer being charged. You still have no real evidence of them going "allout". That is simply something more than you have made up.
Quote:I Just Don't agree with the logic.
Seems that you tend not to agree with logic period.
Quote:Well turn that around and apply it to Marvel for a second - I've never seen Mangog do anything but beat Thor up... so is he not going to be merely *equal* to Juggernaut or Perrikus for example?
What? Is that not the point he was making? Mangog dominates Thor and is clearly much stronger despite not having Thor's feats.
Quote:I've never seen any evidence Thor or Namor could even remotely show Sentry's physical superiority over the opponents he's crushed - How am I wrong to say therefore Sentry is clearly way stronger than them?
Actually, there is such evidence.
Quote:I have never seen Namor unequivocally lift a mountain whereas The Hulk arguably has shown the capacity to, so is Namor the clear inferior? Ditto Thor etc?
We've seen Namor support an island. Clearly when wet, Namor is up there and continuity supports that.
Quote:I only *know* that Namor is as strong as Thor/The Hulk because they have met and fought, Just as I only know Superman & Captain Marvel even out because they have met and fought. Just as I can only call Majestic/Apollo as they too have fought.
And Thor and Superman have fought. Thor and J'onn have fought. He has apparently fought Wonder Woman in the crossover also.
Quote:The rest HAS to be down to what the characters have been seen to do and what their average performance is. That is the only method to deciding whether Thor can match a Dragonball character or Wonderman is any match for Omni-Man, the evidence showns Omni-man would kill Wonderman but according to your philosophy Wonderman would actually be a match, and that is absurd.
Thor and Superman have fought. Thor and J'onn have fought. Thor and Wonder Woman fought some apparently.
Quote:That is not using provenance and it is not certainly not evaluating the facts between the two given characters. That is what I strongly object to - If I see Superman taking a star exploding on him and him sandwiched between two planets both in the same year among a trend for similar feats stretching back years I then have actual inarguable proof he can survive the Silver Surfers Morg/Ravenous takedowns where he detonates a planet.... whereas with Thor or the Hulk I have no such evidence and no reason to think such a thing possible! It's like arguing Wonderman or Ben Grimm can take a Nuke, where's the reason for even thinking it?
Because we have seen Beta Ray Bill take such things and he and Thor have overwhelmingly been portrayed as equals. You ignore those type of things.
Quote:I would love to see someone try and argue that, maybe i'll start a thread.... I continually marvel at the fact despite his now prodigous track record so many just lump Superman with Wonderman more or less. Given the Silver Surfer as an example has shown planetary level firepower only twice in his entire carreer why does the same rule no apply to him I wonder.
Very few lump him with Wonderman. But that tends to be the equivalent of what you do.
Quote:The problem by proxy is if you yourself take crossovers as literal in the way you're doing you still have to accept that Superman logically would crush the Hulk/Namor/Gladiator etc as THEY have never proved as convincingly superior to Thor as Superman eventually did. Thor laid on everything in that fight, and it wasn't enough.
You don't know what Thor laid on in that fight no more than you know if Superman laid everything on. Superman and Cap were the only ones irritated by the universes merging and were uncharacteristically aggressive. You again have simply made something up. And it is idiocy to say that Superman proved convincingly superior in that fight. Clearly they shown as near equals in a fight that could have gone either way.
Quote:If you think Thor somehow rivals Superman physically solely because of JLAvengers that's no buisiness of mine. What i strongly object to is the hopscotch logic you employ to justify the rest. Luke Cage Has matched Ben Grimm/Ironclad/Rhino/the Hulk/Hiroim - so is Cage actually class 90+?
Cage has also been dominated by class 100 characters, so we have to take his averages.
Quote:I've seen Wolverine & Samson Match the Hulk - But are they peers?
Wolverine's success is not based on strength and Samson has overwhelmingly been shown weaker that Hulk in their multiple encounters.
Quote:If the Hulk can shatter Continents/Mountain ranges/planets or whatever on an Ad-Hoc basis what was the OTT Worldbreaker phase about? Why was it necessary?
To expand such destructive power so that he does it simply by walking instead of striking. Can you not see the difference? Has Superman ever nearly destroyed the eastern seaboard simply by walking. Lets apply you question to DC. If Superman has so much power, why did it take a sundip for him to push War World?
Quote:If you're saying evidence is a mere formality to saying 'x' equaly to 'Y' what is the point of this board? I can just say "Savage Dragon beats the Hulk" using that approach.... because using your notion anything goes.
He's not using that approach. He using sound logic.
The problem is that it is widely know that pre-crisis Superman was far more powerful and able than Spider-Man and that is what was shown then. The writer needed to contrive a way for Spider-Man to be important to the conclusion. He didn't dumb anyone down or power anyone up. When Superman crossed over with Silver Surfer, it was easy.
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