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Post By
zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,615
In Reply To
Aang

Member Since: Sat Jun 26, 2010
Posts: 1,369
Subj: Re: Whether Superman is above Thor goes without saying
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 at 04:32:44 pm EST (Viewed 203 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Whether Superman is above Thor goes without saying
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 at 02:27:51 pm EST (Viewed 192 times)



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          Then answer this question: Can an informed person reasonably and sensibly hold the opinion that Thor should beat Superman a preponderance of the time given the evidence in comic books?


        If the evidence is strong enough, yes. I disagree that the evidence is strong enough.


      Okay, so you do think the majority of the board is unreasonable or uninformed since they frequently rank Thor higher than Superman.


    I disagree with their opinion. If you want to label them as with those adjectives, knock yourself out but I won't.  I am so comfortable with my choice that I have no interest in the labeling anybody anything. Why would you even herd me towards that? The combined Marvel/DC creative and editorial team deemed Superman should win in that story.  Combine with my belief that Superman's history suggests he is at very least as formidable of Thor seals it for me. I can ask you if you think those guys are an unreasonable and uninformed lot, but I won't


You already answered that they were. Look right above. I asked you if an informed person could reasonably hold the opinion that Thor should beat Superman and you answered no. Therefore, the majority of posters on this board who hold that belief are either uninformed or unreasonable according to your answer. There is no other logical alternative.


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    But that's just it, if Superman didn't have a history of ridiculous feats that easily equal or even surpass Thor's, I would agree with you. But he does. I also think in that magnitude of an event as Jla/Avengers, those comparative histories were carefully considered by Busiek, Breevoort, Alonzo, Perez and all creative and editorial staff from both sides - and decided that it would make sense for Superman to win.


Woah, that’s a huge assumption. Far more likely, and something you’ve already admitted to, is the fact that DC would never allow their second most iconic character and hero with the longest history lose.


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      You wrote, "Why wouldn't BK think it goes without saying Supes should be #1? I would say that's fair based on JLA/Avengers." So you are someone who says it "goes without saying."


    I did not take "goes without saying" as assuming supes winning 100% of the time.  If that is indeed the connotation of the phrase then I agree, it probably doesn't apply. If it means (as I took it) that it means Supes should win most of the time then I don't see anything wrong with it.


It means neither of those things or at least your second statement does not sufficiently capture what “goes without saying” means. Saying that Superman should be ranked above Thor “goes without saying” means that no other reasonable conclusion can be drawn. It means no one can reasonably believe Thor can be ranked above Superman. It goes without saying that the Earth revolves around the Sun. It goes without saying that Hulk is stronger than Aunt May. Do you really have that degree of inarguable certainty that Superman should beat/is more powerful than Thor?


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      Really? You think they are exactly equal? Not counting villains who are primarily Avengers or Justice League foes, Thor's rogue's gallery is comprised of the Absorbing Man, Celestials, Demogorge, the Destroyer, Ego the Living Planet, Galactus, Hela, Karnilla, Kurse, Loki, Mangog, Mephisto, the Midgard Serpent, Pluto, Perrikus, Surtur, and Ymir. Superman's most formidable foes are Bizarro, Brainiac, Cyborg Superman, Darkseid, Doomsday, General Zod, Gog, Kalibak, Lex Luthor, Mongul, Mr. Mxyzptlk, and Superboy Prime. Are you really going to tell me that those two lists are exactly equal in power level?


    Are you saying histories and rogues galleries are the same thing?


Not exactly, but they are highly correlated. Thor faces cosmic/planetary threats more often than Superman in solo stories.


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    What I was saying is that Superman's overall history of formidability is the very least equal to Thor or even superior.


Based on what other than your assertion? Now if you include pre-Crisis Superman in the mix, you’d have a point, but post-Crisis Superman? Can post-Crisis Superman make Galactus flee? Can he absorb an explosion that would destroy one fifth of the entire universe? Can Superman beat Mephisto on three different occasions in Mephisto’s own realm? These are all things Thor has done under his own power without tapping into outside sources. Superman only has one regular foe who rivals or surpasses Thor’s most powerful nemeses, Mr. Mxyzptlk, and Superman always has to resort to tricking him, not overpowering him. Thor has overpowered Galactus and Mephisto and Ego the Living Planet and Pluto.


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    That is no doubt  one of the reasons why the writing and editorial
    teams of both sides decided that Superman. would win. I mean, it has to be. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.


You need to work harder on that imagination. As if both writing and editorial teams sat down and tabulated both characters’ long histories of wins and losses and debated this like sports writers. As if either Marvel or DC cared nearly as much about continuity as fans do. The outcome makes perfect sense if DC editorial took the absolute position that their most powerful hero Superman can’t lose and there would be no comic if he was going to be written to lose. As Vidar already pointed out, Superman is far more important to DC than Thor is to Marvel.


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      Because Thor can grab somebody, hold them, and godblast them from his body like he does to Durok here, someone stronger and more durable than Superman:


    One has to assume that Thor cannot employ that maneuver easily with Superman because otherwise he would've tried it given the stakes. Thor was trying his best to win, as was Superman.


Uh, no. This is another wild assumption. Thor does not try to utilize the godblast every time there are super high stakes or he would try to use it a lot more than the half dozen times he’s tried in his entire 50+ year history. This goes back to what I was saying before about writers putting the needs of the story ahead of characters’ auto-win powers like Magneto’s blood tricks or Kitty’s phasing people into the ground here:

http://comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=comicbattles-2017011812340291&layout=thread


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        Remember, JLA/Avengers was a limited series with a multitude of heroes. Even if the actual fight scenes were limited in number, I think it's fair to assume the writer meant to convey that both heroes were fighting to their best abilities given the stakes. That would make more sense than otherwise.


      You know the other clear win in that issue of Avengers/JLA is Iron Man and
      Hawkeye beating Captain Atom and Green Arrow. Given that Hawkeye and Green Arrow are pretty even, are we then to take this issue as overwhelming evidence that Iron Man is superior to Captain Atom?


    Which issue did this happen from the 4 issues. I'd like to check.


Avengers/JLA #2.





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