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Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
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Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 at 04:36:04 pm EST (Viewed 277 times)
Reply Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 at 10:23:59 am EST (Viewed 897 times)

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    in the other crossover, at first Thor fought Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter and held his own. he floors superman with an hammer toss, then takes a double punch from Supes and Manhunter, then floors manhunter and both him and supes are not seen again until the end, and then he fights Wonder woman.

Eh? Here is the whole fight from start to finish.

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Are you suggesting Thor beat both Superman and J'onn? Because they are shown fighting others when Wanda blasts everybody.

    the fight was interrupted by Wanda chaos magic with no one truly koed, but Thor fought equally with arguably the 3 strongest fighters on the other team.

Eh, that never happened to begin with. It was a short and inconclusive fight.

    in the second fight Supes "barely" managed a takedown of Thor, which seems to give him an edge in strenght apparently. But in this fight Thor had underestimanted the kryptonian, walked into his heat vision and got distracted by his stopping mjolnir.

That's a rather colorful interpretation of events. Mind telling me how Thor got distracted?

    but later on, he has "taken the measure" of the kryptonian, so the fight might go differently because supes had "barely" won before

Thor is a sore loser then?

    we don't have a rematch, but we do have Supes feeling "the power of thor" when the thundergod gives him the hammer thanks to the failsafe of it being a "special occasion", and he feels the power of Thor as being something he "never felt" despite his being pretty powerful himself.

Yeah, Thor got some lip service. Just like Captain Marvel and Martian Manhunter do.

All three gets talked up a lot, Superman walks the walk.

    considering that in the Access fight Superman doesn't do anything more than zapping all of them, and he is made somehow of elettricity, i don't see how this gives him any kind of advantage over Thor. He managed to free everyone from mind control, but if he had had to fight everyone at the same time i don't see how he could have succeded.

So the writer randomly brought out a hero who couldn't stop them..... to stop them?

That doesn't makes any sense.

    As for KAlibak being as strong as the Hulk in the narration, it's a trope for enemies to be called out as being as strong as a rival of the hero. Thor called Agger Minotaur form "as strong as the Hulk" before defeating him and Ulik combined in one hit, and Ulik called himself as strong as a Thor before being manhandled by the Maestro; Superman called BOTH Hulk and Thor "the strongest he ever faced". I think that those comments are usually meant ot say the threat is in the same class as the hero mentioned, but on an average, not at peak. Thor needing help from Manhunter doesn't mean he couldn't have beaten Kalibak on his own, just like it didnt mean that Superman couldn't have when manhunter helped him against thor himself.

But Thor doesn't beats Kalibak on his own, Superman defeated Thor on his own.

    I Can give a very righteous Supes a slight edge in strenght as i would give a very pissed off Hulk over Thor, but only if the thundergod is not giving his all, and i think the strenght differential is not that large even in such an occasion, they are still in the same range of power, and thor could match them if he used his magical forms of amping be they berseker rage or magic belt. And in pure power, very few can match the god of Thunder, who has feats on cosmic scales and toppled skyfathers and cosmic entities in his best feats. So i think overall Supes edges Thor in phisical aspects, but thor edges Supes in power on an average, and peak versions of both could probably one shot an average portrayal of the other. Superman has a lot more weaknesses that can be exploited though, be them Red Sun, Kryptonite, Magic, all things mjolnir could find a way to use if Thor required it to. Save Superman getting the Worldserpent Venom or a Fang of his on his hand i don't see him having the same degree of use of a trump card, it's less likely.

If you think Thor has toppled skyfathers and whatnot, wait till you see what Superman has done.

Superman doesn't needs a weakness to beat the tar out of Thor. He already did it with his fists.

uh, i know, i posted the whole fight, even the precursor you did not, save the scenes where no Thor fighting appeared. Did yours add anything to the matter at hand? i mean, i also said no one was Koed, did you even read my post before replying to it? Also, how is this fight, where Thor alone held his own against the 3 heavyweight of the other team while the Avengers fought the rest not a good showing for Thor?

i mean, if you had to list the matchup in that battle, how would you write it?

i see
Supes,Manhunter and Wonder Womn VS Thor
Cap vs Batman
Quicksilver and Hawkeye vs Flash
Iron Man and Vision vs Green Lantern and Aquaman
Wanda vs everyone

My point with that fight was that needing two people to punch him down didn't mean Thor is inferior to Kalibak, only that he wasn't taking the fight as seriously, and he himself took a double punch in the fight above and was fine. And the fact that he was helped by Manhunter to knock down Kalibak doesn't make him less powerful since a similar double punch with Manhunter AND Superman himself didnt Ko Thor.

I think you see it as those characters as having fixed levels of strenght but i actually think there is more range there, given the respective feats, both high and low. when two people in a comparable range fight, it all depends on their mental state and preparation at the moment, and so one will overcome if they are the ones with the best mindset at the time. There have been times where even KAlibak managed to knock Supes around for a little bit, and others where it was over in two panels. As such, Thor at times takes a long time to bring down Ulik, others he one shot kills his as an afterthought. Multiple times in his history Thor one shotted beings he had trouble even just the number before just because he decided to "get serious". Thor could very well beat kalibak on his own. just for comparison Superman here was knocking around kalibak for far longer than Thor did in the story you posted, but not koing him until Orion showed up and one shotted him with a headbutt.

i see it as comparable. Thor and Manhunter actually took him down even faster than that.

that was to say that direct comparison don't necessarily depend only on stats, and even people with comparable strenght aren't going to score the same on every single test or day.

Also, the weaknesses are a crucial part of a match, what would superman do if Thor opened a portal to a red sun core and rushed Supes inside it, or blasted Supes with Red sun radiation, or even used one of the rare magic powers of mjolnir to somehow depower and trap him (like when he miniaturized Hyperion and made him helplessly trapped in a magic snowglobe)? I know, usually Thor prefers to fight phisically because of his warrior code, but if he needed to do it, are you truly sure he couldn't? Could Superman survive a quantum tsunami that tears apart reality and erased the existence of those hit on a conceptual level? because Thor "died" but survived it because people believed in him still (Glory too, but it was a Skyfather level threat so it's more expected from him as such)

what you would call, the power of a prayer XD it had a big role also in the rematch with Glory

i mean, i can see if you were saying that Superman has better strenght feats, and has more wins in their actually published fights (i think Supes has one win, and the other fights are all stalemates or interrupted), that's acceptable. But saying Thor has no chance, and that he is not a contender is certainly wrong, Superman himself said Thor may have been the toughest he ever fought, and that said by someone who punched Darkseid and Doomsday is a pretty good argument for his strenght not being that far off, even though Supes dial went up to eleven.

adding to the "close" strenght and toughness the fact that he has magic powers and the full power Mjolnir has historically brought to bear when needed, i can easily see occasions where Thor could win such a fight.

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