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Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
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Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 at 07:40:56 am EST (Viewed 343 times)
Reply Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 at 01:01:06 am EST (Viewed 256 times)

Previous Post

    uh, i know, i posted the whole fight, even the precursor you did not, save the scenes where no Thor fighting appeared. Did yours add anything to the matter at hand? i mean, i also said no one was Koed, did you even read my post before replying to it? Also, how is this fight, where Thor alone held his own against the 3 heavyweight of the other team while the Avengers fought the rest not a good showing for Thor?

Yes, of course it did. You insinuated that Thor took out Superman and J'onn which did not happen.

    i mean, if you had to list the matchup in that battle, how would you write it?

    i see
    Supes,Manhunter and Wonder Womn VS Thor
    Cap vs Batman
    Quicksilver and Hawkeye vs Flash
    Iron Man and Vision vs Green Lantern and Aquaman
    Wanda vs everyone

I also see Kyle attacking Wanda, Cap attacking Diana and so forth. It was a quick scuffle and Busiek said nobody was taken out by anyone.

    My point with that fight was that needing two people to punch him down didn't mean Thor is inferior to Kalibak, only that he wasn't taking the fight as seriously, and he himself took a double punch in the fight above and was fine.

That's exact opposite of what happened. Giant Man offered to help Thor and Darkseid flat out said that Avengers were losing.

That's why Access brought JLA in the first place. Did you even read the scans?

    And the fact that he was helped by Manhunter to knock down Kalibak doesn't make him less powerful since a similar double punch with Manhunter AND Superman himself didnt Ko Thor.

Nobody said that JLA were losing against Avengers and hence were brought help to level the field, did they?

    I think you see it as those characters as having fixed levels of strenght but i actually think there is more range there, given the respective feats, both high and low. when two people in a comparable range fight, it all depends on their mental state and preparation at the moment, and so one will overcome if they are the ones with the best mindset at the time. There have been times where even KAlibak managed to knock Supes around for a little bit, and others where it was over in two panels. As such, Thor at times takes a long time to bring down Ulik, others he one shot kills his as an afterthought. Multiple times in his history Thor one shotted beings he had trouble even just the number before just because he decided to "get serious". Thor could very well beat kalibak on his own. just for comparison Superman here was knocking around kalibak for far longer than Thor did in the story you posted, but not koing him until Orion showed up and one shotted him with a headbutt.

Did you just post an out of continuity comic for proving your point?

    i see it as comparable. Thor and Manhunter actually took him down even faster than that.


    that was to say that direct comparison don't necessarily depend only on stats, and even people with comparable strenght aren't going to score the same on every single test or day.

    Also, the weaknesses are a crucial part of a match, what would superman do if Thor opened a portal to a red sun core and rushed Supes inside it, or blasted Supes with Red sun radiation, or even used one of the rare magic powers of mjolnir to somehow depower and trap him (like when he miniaturized Hyperion and made him helplessly trapped in a magic snowglobe)? I know, usually Thor prefers to fight phisically because of his warrior code, but if he needed to do it, are you truly sure he couldn't? Could Superman survive a quantum tsunami that tears apart reality and erased the existence of those hit on a conceptual level? because Thor "died" but survived it because people believed in him still (Glory too, but it was a Skyfather level threat so it's more expected from him as such)

Trust me, you don't want to go by one off showings. Superman has a lot more than Thor can do.

    what you would call, the power of a prayer XD it had a big role also in the rematch with Glory

Superman doesn't needs prayers to beat up characters at that level.

    i mean, i can see if you were saying that Superman has better strenght feats, and has more wins in their actually published fights (i think Supes has one win, and the other fights are all stalemates or interrupted), that's acceptable. But saying Thor has no chance, and that he is not a contender is certainly wrong, Superman himself said Thor may have been the toughest he ever fought, and that said by someone who punched Darkseid and Doomsday is a pretty good argument for his strenght not being that far off, even though Supes dial went up to eleven.

Nobody said that Thor has no chance at all.

    adding to the "close" strenght and toughness the fact that he has magic powers and the full power Mjolnir has historically brought to bear when needed, i can easily see occasions where Thor could win such a fight.

Except Thor isn't close to Superman in strength and frankly never has been.

again, i said twice "NO ONE WAS KOED" how many times do i have to say it before you understand? i just said that Thor "knocked around" all 3 heavyweight of the JLA with ease in that fight, not that he won; But since you take the Kalibak fight as "proof" of Thor inferiority because he had to be helped by manhunter, how should we take THIS istance where Supes had to be helped by Manhunter and Wonder Woman to just keep Thor occupied? And in the one on one with superman later he lost "barely" in a purely phisical battle (not unlike the Hulk fight in the other crossover), a fight that left Superman totally spent and breathing heavily, aknowledging Thor as the thoughest fight he had ever had.

That's why i don't go by "just one showing", i'm doing a discussion based on range and the potential of any given character which is given by both the high and the lows, otherwise i would agree with you, taking a single battle OVER all others and ignore all feats beyond that single feat that character has produced. but there are contraddictory showings; the range of Thor is certainly not that far from Superman's own when you count the high as well as the low. Thor routinely kills or brings down Skyfather level threats, when going all out. GLory was a "ODin with all Asgardians absorbed in himself and the full power of Asgard" kind of character, basically a Skyfather to Celestial level threat. Are you saying Superman could alone defeat with ease someone who at DC would be basically inbetween Gog (the 4th world one from the jsa storyline) and Imperiex level? the fact that a prayer influenced that fight because Thor is a God is of course significant. it's a condition of the fight that gives Thor a powerup, basically like Superman sundipping. Take away the prayer, ok. then, take away the sundip for superman. both are plot based convenient devices to push the hero beyond his normal state that make him able to hang near skyfather levels.

Again, i agree that in pure phisical strenght normally Superman has an edge, not unlike the Hulk, on an average basis. But considering how the Warrior Madness or Meginjord or the ODinpower can amplify the strenght of thor many times over, and a Thor without them was "the single toughest fight" Supes had up to that crossover, i can easily see Thor potentially matching him in strenght even at his upper tiers if the story was set up that way. And the Power differential thanks to the magical abilities of Mjolnir more than enough balances any slight difference there might normally be in strenght, especially considering how magic usually affects Supes just as it would a normal mortal being.

Consider also how having the same range in strenght usually doesn't necessarily mean that one would always do as well at a specific chore. a bodybuilder may be able to lift a weight one day, and not the day after, depending on circumstances. so how can we expect battle results to be foregone conclusions? two boxers of close to equal strenght and ability could battle 10 times in a row, and maybe one would win more this day, the other win more the day after. i see them as having a comparable range in effects of their strenght at peak, being able to move infinite conceptual weights, fight incalculably strong beings evenly and matching Skyfathers at times, planetary to cosmic level of feats, affecting dimensional barriers and the likes, destroying history by hitting something, etc... So a phisical battle between them could go either way depending on mindset and conditions of the fight; and foes of both are certainly on the same range, Doomsday is not that far off from Mangog, and Darkseid is not far off from any Dark Skyfather Thor has faced in the past (Zalia, Glory, the Serpent, Thanos clones with a cosmic distruction power up, ecc), and yet Thor has managed to get a win over all of those. Recently he even killed Exitar the Celestial Executioner and even the hammerless Thor is going to fight Thanos in Unworthy Thor #5 apparently; that's what makes them close to me, the potential to act on the same levels of strenght and power if the story requires them to...

So, do i think Superman is more likely to win against a base version of Thor that doesn't use mjolnir offensive abilities beyond brawling? sure, thanks to his win over both Thor and Hulk in the respective crossovers. Do i think Superman is "conceptually stronger" than Thor? No, i don't think so; at base he might be 1,5 times stronger than a base Thor or Hulk, but all three have the potential to increase in strenght indefinitely depending on the plot conditions as well, so i see them as conceptually equals. Bloodthirsty Superman sundipping all out in top condition to me is pretty much equal to a Thor using his godly/prayer based magic to the fullest of it's potential or Hulk using the full brunt of his anger dinamicity. that's what i mean when i say they are peers.

Also, the magic weakness IS a major concern in thinking about the end of a fight between both those powerhouses; there have been occasions where Supes fell to just two punches because the adversary power was close to his own and magic based, someone Thor did beat in his crossover fight with him...

and magic teeths were cutting Supes pretty easily recently

a vampire could cut or bite right trough his personal forcefield like protection because of his magical nature (a vampire that even Batman could kill)

Of course, it's not always so. plenty of times Cap Marvel or Wonder Woman fought evenly or were beaten by Superman regardless of any magic they were imbued with. Mainly Supes durability is usually so high that even magical based energy or phisical attacks could be taken by him on average. But at times it is downplayed a lot, other times it becomes a plot point to be used to explain why supes was defeated easily. With Thor it could certainly be used as such, even if that time it wasn't.

So i think that while Supes won the first one on one fight, he is not conceptually better, and Thor being in a comparable range could very well beat him in a rematch; and if the magic weakness was taken into account, he would have a pretty good shot at killing the Kryptonian.

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