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Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
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Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 at 06:23:01 am EST (Viewed 260 times)
Reply Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 at 01:21:32 am EST (Viewed 257 times)

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    again, i said twice "NO ONE WAS KOED" how many times do i have to say it before you understand? i just said that Thor "knocked around" all 3 heavyweight of the JLA with ease in that fight, not that he won; But since you take the Kalibak fight as "proof" of Thor inferiority because he had to be helped by manhunter, how should we take THIS istance where Supes had to be helped by Manhunter and Wonder Woman to just keep Thor occupied?

Thor wasn't shown hitting Superman in that fight save one opening shot which Superman shrugged off.

And Superman koed Thor on his own, Thor didn't beat Kalibak on his own.

    And in the one on one with superman later he lost "barely" in a purely phisical battle (not unlike the Hulk fight in the other crossover), a fight that left Superman totally spent and breathing heavily, aknowledging Thor as the thoughest fight he had ever had.

I like how marvel fans tell Superman was totally spent when it was never stated.

And Thor said Superman was the mightiest being in nine realms, is that true as well?

    That's why i don't go by "just one showing", i'm doing a discussion based on range and the potential of any given character which is given by both the high and the lows, otherwise i would agree with you, taking a single battle OVER all others and ignore all feats beyond that single feat that character has produced. but there are contraddictory showings; the range of Thor is certainly not that far from Superman's own when you count the high as well as the low. Thor routinely kills or brings down Skyfather level threats, when going all out. GLory was a "ODin with all Asgardians absorbed in himself and the full power of Asgard" kind of character, basically a Skyfather to Celestial level threat. Are you saying Superman could alone defeat with ease someone who at DC would be basically inbetween Gog (the 4th world one from the jsa storyline) and Imperiex level?

Thor was amped with the spark of TOAA and Glory had already killed him in the first fight.

And yes, Superman can and will if it comes to that.

    the fact that a prayer influenced that fight because Thor is a God is of course significant. it's a condition of the fight that gives Thor a powerup, basically like Superman sundipping. Take away the prayer, ok. then, take away the sundip for superman. both are plot based convenient devices to push the hero beyond his normal state that make him able to hang near skyfather levels.

But Superman does that more than Thor. Its basic fact of comics. Nobody says "Its job for Thor".

    Again, i agree that in pure phisical strenght normally Superman has an edge, not unlike the Hulk, on an average basis. But considering how the Warrior Madness or Meginjord or the ODinpower can amplify the strenght of thor many times over, and a Thor without them was "the single toughest fight" Supes had up to that crossover, i can easily see Thor potentially matching him in strenght even at his upper tiers if the story was set up that way. And the Power differential thanks to the magical abilities of Mjolnir more than enough balances any slight difference there might normally be in strenght, especially considering how magic usually affects Supes just as it would a normal mortal being.

This is just speculation. Yes, and Superman can just sundip and oneshot kill Thor. That might happen too.

    Consider also how having the same range in strenght usually doesn't necessarily mean that one would always do as well at a specific chore. a bodybuilder may be able to lift a weight one day, and not the day after, depending on circumstances. so how can we expect battle results to be foregone conclusions? two boxers of close to equal strenght and ability could battle 10 times in a row, and maybe one would win more this day, the other win more the day after. i see them as having a comparable range in effects of their strenght at peak, being able to move infinite conceptual weights, fight incalculably strong beings evenly and matching Skyfathers at times, planetary to cosmic level of feats, affecting dimensional barriers and the likes, destroying history by hitting something, etc... So a phisical battle between them could go either way depending on mindset and conditions of the fight; and foes of both are certainly on the same range, Doomsday is not that far off from Mangog, and Darkseid is not far off from any Dark Skyfather Thor has faced in the past (Zalia, Glory, the Serpent, Thanos clones with a cosmic distruction power up, ecc), and yet Thor has managed to get a win over all of those. Recently he even killed Exitar the Celestial Executioner and even the hammerless Thor is going to fight Thanos in Unworthy Thor #5 apparently; that's what makes them close to me, the potential to act on the same levels of strenght and power if the story requires them to...

    So, do i think Superman is more likely to win against a base version of Thor that doesn't use mjolnir offensive abilities beyond brawling? sure, thanks to his win over both Thor and Hulk in the respective crossovers. Do i think Superman is "conceptually stronger" than Thor? No, i don't think so; at base he might be 1,5 times stronger than a base Thor or Hulk, but all three have the potential to increase in strenght indefinitely depending on the plot conditions as well, so i see them as conceptually equals. Bloodthirsty Superman sundipping all out in top condition to me is pretty much equal to a Thor using his godly/prayer based magic to the fullest of it's potential or Hulk using the full brunt of his anger dinamicity. that's what i mean when i say they are peers.

    Also, the magic weakness IS a major concern in thinking about the end of a fight between both those powerhouses; there have been occasions where Supes fell to just two punches because the adversary power was close to his own and magic based, someone Thor did beat in his crossover fight with him...

    and magic teeths were cutting Supes pretty easily recently

    a vampire could cut or bite right trough his personal forcefield like protection because of his magical nature (a vampire that even Batman could kill)

Yes, Superman has low showings. Not like Thor getting shot by a bullet too.

We can do this all day if you want.


    Of course, it's not always so. plenty of times Cap Marvel or Wonder Woman fought evenly or were beaten by Superman regardless of any magic they were imbued with. Mainly Supes durability is usually so high that even magical based energy or phisical attacks could be taken by him on average. But at times it is downplayed a lot, other times it becomes a plot point to be used to explain why supes was defeated easily. With Thor it could certainly be used as such, even if that time it wasn't.

    So i think that while Supes won the first one on one fight, he is not conceptually better, and Thor being in a comparable range could very well beat him in a rematch; and if the magic weakness was taken into account, he would have a pretty good shot at killing the Kryptonian.

Let's be real, Thor isn't that powerful to kill Superman. If magic comes into play, he can beat Superman.

Otherwise Superman remains a favorite in a fight or comparison in power.

but you don't even see supes keep fighting thor instead, you see Wonder Woman, so both had one hit each, Thor floored Supes with the first attack, then Manhunter and Supes floored Thor with the second combined punch; both got up with no damage. But Superman was shown hitting Thor WITH Manhunter at the same time to no effect. Shouldn't he have been knocked out immediately by your use of the Kalibak fight as a point of reference? I don't think Kalibak is Thor's superior, unless you count Ulik or Bi-beast the same way because the first time they gave Thor a tussle; and i don't think Thor was shown as superior to Manhunter and Supes by the fact that Thor took such a double punch and was fine. First fight around, maybe Thor didn't unload his all on the New God; potentially? Thor could one shot kill kalibak if at his peak efficiency, he has beaten peers of Darkseid before...

and of course it's true, Thor acknowledged Superman as capable of withstanding him, "the mightiest of the nine realm" because he stopped Mjolnir. it's an aknowledging of the huge strenght superman shows, and something that puts doubt in Thor's mind because he starts questioning himself. And his being proved by the fight is stated twice by Superman himself, "barely" winning is not winning by a large margin, and he was certainly unbalanced by the end. After all, he was later easily dogpiled and taken out by a small group of mostly Top Tiers. Again, Supes shows a slim edge in strenght when both at "standard" or Base versions. Does that make him conceptually stronger? i don't think so.

Thor has different devices to do the very same things, which is everything he needs to do for the sake of the story. Being a God, there is no need to "say" it's a job for Thor. Just need for someone to be praying to him, or for him, and he can feel it.

he feels prayers "a universe away" and replies to them

even other gods can pray to him to overcome an obstacle, and then he will, like when he absorbed a Time and Space spanning Godkilling bomb at point blank range

and of course both have low showings just as they have high ones. But that just tells us that at times they can be beaten by far less than what it would take for a base version, and at times they can go far beyond that same base. considering the possible range, i don't see how they are not comparable overall.

Of course, a sundipped Superman against a base Thor would be an uneven fight probably, considering how the base vs base battle went. But a Sundipped supes against a Prayer enhanced Berseker raging Odin Force powered Thor wouldn't probably be so one dimentional as you seem to think. and i wouldn't underestimate the power of a God, Thor could enchant a weapon to the point it could kill Exitar the Celestial Exterminator, i think his magic has more than a chance to make him able to kill a superman if need be. And the very nature of Magical abilities bestowed by the hammer and the Odinpower imbued in it makes thor a fight that would be competitive for anyone who is not directly a reality manipulator, and even then Thor could probably hurt even one as such pretty badly.

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