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Post By
Marv

Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 4,551
In Reply To
abhijit

Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 at 07:35:22 am EST (Viewed 128 times)
Reply Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 at 01:06:10 am EST (Viewed 115 times)

Previous Post


    Quote:
    but you don't even see supes keep fighting thor instead, you see Wonder Woman, so both had one hit each, Thor floored Supes with the first attack, then Manhunter and Supes floored Thor with the second combined punch; both got up with no damage. But Superman was shown hitting Thor WITH Manhunter at the same time to no effect.


That's a colorful way to show "no effect".


    Quote:
    Shouldn't he have been knocked out immediately by your use of the Kalibak fight as a point of reference?


No, different writers and all that schtick.


    Quote:
    I don't think Kalibak is Thor's superior, unless you count Ulik or Bi-beast the same way because the first time they gave Thor a tussle; and i don't think Thor was shown as superior to Manhunter and Supes by the fact that Thor took such a double punch and was fine. First fight around, maybe Thor didn't unload his all on the New God; potentially? Thor could one shot kill kalibak if at his peak efficiency, he has beaten peers of Darkseid before...


But Thor himself was losing as per characters and needed help. Superman didn't against Thor.

    Quote:
    and of course it's true, Thor acknowledged Superman as capable of withstanding him, "the mightiest of the nine realm" because he stopped Mjolnir. it's an aknowledging of the huge strenght superman shows, and something that puts doubt in Thor's mind because he starts questioning himself. And his being proved by the fight is stated twice by Superman himself, "barely" winning is not winning by a large margin, and he was certainly unbalanced by the end. After all, he was later easily dogpiled and taken out by a small group of mostly Top Tiers. Again, Supes shows a slim edge in strenght when both at "standard" or Base versions. Does that make him conceptually stronger? i don't think so.


But you are taking Superman's word as gospel but not taking Thor's?

Isn't that what we call biased?


    Quote:

    Thor has different devices to do the very same things, which is everything he needs to do for the sake of the story. Being a God, there is no need to "say" it's a job for Thor. Just need for someone to be praying to him, or for him, and he can feel it.



    Quote:
    he feels prayers "a universe away" and replies to them





That's not what it means. Thor isn't the one to get called in when the job gets difficult as much as Superman.


    Quote:
    even other gods can pray to him to overcome an obstacle, and then he will, like when he absorbed a Time and Space spanning Godkilling bomb at point blank range



    Quote:
    http://imgur.com/gallery/LtrVZ


That's nice. He also died due to that but who counts that, eh?


    Quote:

    and of course both have low showings just as they have high ones. But that just tells us that at times they can be beaten by far less than what it would take for a base version, and at times they can go far beyond that same base. considering the possible range, i don't see how they are not comparable overall.



    Quote:
    Of course, a sundipped Superman against a base Thor would be an uneven fight probably, considering how the base vs base battle went. But a Sundipped supes against a Prayer enhanced Berseker raging Odin Force powered Thor wouldn't probably be so one dimentional as you seem to think. and i wouldn't underestimate the power of a God, Thor could enchant a weapon to the point it could kill Exitar the Celestial Exterminator, i think his magic has more than a chance to make him able to kill a superman if need be. And the very nature of Magical abilities bestowed by the hammer and the Odinpower imbued in it makes thor a fight that would be competitive for anyone who is not directly a reality manipulator, and even then Thor could probably hurt even one as such pretty badly.


That's nice and all. But it doesn't means much in a standard fight between them.

ok, "you don't like the term "no effect" if applied to someone who is not superman. then how about "the same amount of effect" than the Thor hit on superman shown before? both are thrown back, and get up immediately no worse for the wear.

Ok, then since they are "different authors" the kalibak point is null and void because that Superman didn't fight kalibak in that author story and so can't be used as a frame of reference.

Also, even if you wanted a direct comparison of both fights, in one Thor was thrown to the ground and replied after stating kalibak was as strong as the hulk with a punch ( i don't see evidence of "losing" in the actual panel, just of getting hit once) and got backup from Manhunter, as well said to be strong as a hulk, for the ko. in the other author fight, superman was thrown into a skyscraper by Thor and immediately got backup from Manhunter, Thor was thrown to the ground, got back up and fought Wonder Woman. In that specific battle, he might not have wanted help from manhunter, but he got it all the same, the same kind of help Thor got against kalibak.


I'm taking both words in the same frame of reference and considering the context giving them the same degree of plausibility. i think that's pretty unbiased. in that specific occasion under that specific writer, Supes barely beat thor in a straight fight with no magic involved; a Thor who now has taken the measure of the kryptonian's strenght, and would then be ready for it, not getting surprised in a rematch.

In Thor's universe, superman is not called in at all. what do you mean with that? that Supes is more popular in general? i would probably say so, yes, but he is more popular than Eternity too, would he beat the Abstracts then?

Also, in the Godbomb he did die later, yes, but that's not the point. Thanks to prayers, he withstood a universal weapon and took on himself the death of all gods in existence in doing it, survived it, absorbed the Necroweapon that empowered the enemy and he died from it, then resurrected himself 3 days later, as gods are prone to do; the prayer made him able to do the impossible, that's all Thor needs to achieve a goal, no matter how implausible.


not to be antagonistic, but if we consider specific author intent, then of course some would have Superman beat Thor in a "normal" fight more often than not (Jurgens i think said 6/10 in a no energy/magic powers involved fight, but he also said Thor 10/10 if magic use is involved) which i feel is alright if you want to consider it, but far from the be all end all of it. Others might not, and since no single author can establish the complete conceptual frame of reference of a character, it being a melting pot of the potential shown in all stories past and present, i feel that the range of both character permits an overlap in most fields.


Considered the part of Thor's powers connected to the omnipotent odinpower, i think that if at base Superman slightly overpowers him in strenght, he can very much use his own magic plot devices, like Supes can use his solar based ones, to amp their strenght to whatever level necessary, to the point that they both can beat Cosmically empowered Tyrants like Darkseid/Thanos and do the impossible. so in that i see them as pretty close peers if taken to their extreme conclusions.

i think both Superman and Thor have a similar range in direct phisical fighting power to characters similarly capable of the impossible under specific circumstances in a same degree by reciprocal feats shown, like Hulk, Sentry, Blue Marvel, Cap Marvel/Shazam, ecc, all character whose phisical ability and power is undetermined and relevant on specific plot devices that can bring them to a "tending to the infinite" level, with feats on the planetary/dimensional and beyond.

Their main differences in purely direct fighting SHOULD be speed for Superman, and fighting ability for Thor, but both are characteristics usually dumbed down depending on the fight to the point sometimes superman can't tag Batman or Thor can't outfight simple brawlers... so i tend to see a fight as "normally" going close to equal, with just a contextual factor tipping the scales.





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