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Post By
Marv

Member Since: Sat Jan 24, 2015
Posts: 5,695
In Reply To
abhijit

Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 at 07:08:25 am EST (Viewed 258 times)
Reply Subj: Re: and yet
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 at 03:12:25 am EST (Viewed 183 times)

Previous Post


    Quote:
    ok, "you don't like the term "no effect" if applied to someone who is not superman. then how about "the same amount of effect" than the Thor hit on superman shown before? both are thrown back, and get up immediately no worse for the wear.



    Quote:
    Ok, then since they are "different authors" the kalibak point is null and void because that Superman didn't fight kalibak in that author story and so can't be used as a frame of reference.


But Superman has fought Kalibak several times and beats him down far easier than Thor did.


    Quote:
    Also, even if you wanted a direct comparison of both fights, in one Thor was thrown to the ground and replied after stating kalibak was as strong as the hulk with a punch ( i don't see evidence of "losing" in the actual panel, just of getting hit once) and got backup from Manhunter, as well said to be strong as a hulk, for the ko. in the other author fight, superman was thrown into a skyscraper by Thor and immediately got backup from Manhunter, Thor was thrown to the ground, got back up and fought Wonder Woman. In that specific battle, he might not have wanted help from manhunter, but he got it all the same, the same kind of help Thor got against kalibak.


But Thor needed the help. That was the sole reason Access brought JLA.

It helps to read the scans you know?


    Quote:

    I'm taking both words in the same frame of reference and considering the context giving them the same degree of plausibility. i think that's pretty unbiased. in that specific occasion under that specific writer, Supes barely beat thor in a straight fight with no magic involved; a Thor who now has taken the measure of the kryptonian's strenght, and would then be ready for it, not getting surprised in a rematch.


Thor wasn't surprised in the first fight too. Who says Superman didn't take Thor's measure and knocks him out even earlier?


    Quote:
    In Thor's universe, superman is not called in at all. what do you mean with that? that Supes is more popular in general? i would probably say so, yes, but he is more popular than Eternity too, would he beat the Abstracts then?


That's such a warped logic, I don't know what to say about it.

My advice, read before you post.


    Quote:
    Also, in the Godbomb he did die later, yes, but that's not the point. Thanks to prayers, he withstood a universal weapon and took on himself the death of all gods in existence in doing it, survived it, absorbed the Necroweapon that empowered the enemy and he died from it, then resurrected himself 3 days later, as gods are prone to do; the prayer made him able to do the impossible, that's all Thor needs to achieve a goal, no matter how implausible.


He didn't resurrected himself, King Thor revived him. Superman went to Monitor realm, took bleed which only Monitors can take and whose single drop could make you omnipotent or destroy you totally and said "Monitors who"?

If you want grandiose feats, Thor got nothing on Superman.


    Quote:

    not to be antagonistic, but if we consider specific author intent, then of course some would have Superman beat Thor in a "normal" fight more often than not (Jurgens i think said 6/10 in a no energy/magic powers involved fight, but he also said Thor 10/10 if magic use is involved) which i feel is alright if you want to consider it, but far from the be all end all of it. Others might not, and since no single author can establish the complete conceptual frame of reference of a character, it being a melting pot of the potential shown in all stories past and present, i feel that the range of both character permits an overlap in most fields.


Not quite. Thor only wins if magic is heavily involved and even then its not a guarantee just like Captain Marvel beating Superman.

Without magic? I don't think any writer will have Thor beat Superman.


    Quote:

    Considered the part of Thor's powers connected to the omnipotent odinpower, i think that if at base Superman slightly overpowers him in strenght, he can very much use his own magic plot devices, like Supes can use his solar based ones, to amp their strenght to whatever level necessary, to the point that they both can beat Cosmically empowered Tyrants like Darkseid/Thanos and do the impossible. so in that i see them as pretty close peers if taken to their extreme conclusions.



    Quote:
    i think both Superman and Thor have a similar range in direct phisical fighting power to characters similarly capable of the impossible under specific circumstances in a same degree by reciprocal feats shown, like Hulk, Sentry, Blue Marvel, Cap Marvel/Shazam, ecc, all character whose phisical ability and power is undetermined and relevant on specific plot devices that can bring them to a "tending to the infinite" level, with feats on the planetary/dimensional and beyond.



    Quote:
    Their main differences in purely direct fighting SHOULD be speed for Superman, and fighting ability for Thor, but both are characteristics usually dumbed down depending on the fight to the point sometimes superman can't tag Batman or Thor can't outfight simple brawlers... so i tend to see a fight as "normally" going close to equal, with just a contextual factor tipping the scales.



    Quote:



Thanks for the educational lesson.

And no, Superman is about the strength, not speed. Thor isn't about strength and in most portrayals would be shown below Superman in strength.

They were other stories, with other author intent, so how can they be relevant in your own worldview, given how you yourself pointed it out as a dealbreaker for the two fights we were comparing before? also, Kalibak was already defeated beforehand (in just a couple of panels and in 3 punches by the way, not exactly a prolonged fight) when Access called on Superman, because the heroes were already fighting each other. So no comparison on that ground, it wasn't thor needing help, it was Access needing the heroes to stop fighting and calling on the one he would expect to be able to break such a fight without being antagonistic to everyone and making it worse. Reading the scans doesn't make you an expert if all you do is decontextualize them and cherrypick only the parts that help your point.

i mean, that for you is superman "shrugging off" a Thor hit

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LcnC9Go4bjY/VTDx0kZuS5I/AAAAAAAKkOw/at0zNLOEcOI/s1600/p5_43%2Bcopy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dgOo4bQB4us/VTDx2LtKzeI/AAAAAAAKkPA/prYjRw1IEPM/s1600/p5_44%2Bcopy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FQ6HcJTPSo0/VTDx2Q8M8jI/AAAAAAAKkPE/ywuGC5NtU68/s1600/p5_45%2Bcopy.jpg

and then the next contact they have is this, which then is of course not proof that Thor is stronger than Manhunter Or Superman even though he tankes a double punch from them to no effect, and it's of course not proof Supes needed help or anything.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PoeLnASXmfg/VTDyYowlijI/AAAAAAAKkVM/kOL8_MAjRtw/s1600/p6_5.jpg

and yet, for you this somehow is proof that KAlibak, who gets koes by the double punch, is stronger than Thor who absolutely needed help to win?

http://i.imgur.com/eJB4D6Bl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yfTcIhyl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2DtV0D2l.jpg

i smell double standards. if you think it's because he says Kalibak is as strong as the Hulk, Thor says it almost all the time someone is a good enough fight, he does the same for Manhunter, who is sometimes likewise said to be as strong as superman. It's just a frame of reference to say that they are in a comparable position powerwise. he did it for the Minotaur before curbstomping him once he stopped holding back on him because of that, to the point even Ulik intervention making it a 2 on 1 doesn't hold when Thor gets serious and rushes both at the same time.

http://s27.postimg.org/41v2ewxxf/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_005.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/4057652-thor+-+god+of+thunder+023-006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/4057651-thor+-+god+of+thunder+023-007.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/sw5dhi403/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_008.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/k3oettiv7/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_009.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/kfagkbooz/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_013.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/khuc75scj/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_015.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/k194kq4lf/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_016.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/gco0yzjyb/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_017.jpg
http://s27.postimg.org/tbl8o9fb7/Thor_God_of_Thunder_023_018.jpg

when someone is said to be "as strong as" it's usually meant as a general statement to say they are peers in equal plot conditions. But it's not a foregone conclusion given the variability implied by the potential range of characters; i mean, look here how Thor faces in direct hand to hand to someone said to be directly 4 times as strong as he is in a direct strenght contest...

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17026795/ThorvsOrlog2.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17026800/ThorvsOrlog3.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17026804/ThorvsOrlog4.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17026808/ThorvsOrlog5.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/17026816/ThorvsOrlog7.jpg.html


i repeat, i agree with Jurgens that in their "base forms" Superman is probably going to be stronger and a lot faster than Thor in a normal fight, and Thor would be by far the better fighter and slightly more powerful, with a magical easy win if he chose to use it (wich he usually doesn't preferring to fight directly). So without having any potential for plot indiced growth included, Supes would probably win 6/10 as long as thor doesn't use magic (which is a BIG part of his powerset though). he would have a similar degree of chance with a "base" Hulk unless he really pissed him off a lot (something i don't think supes would be likely to do being a good guy who usually always talks first).

but as for their relative upper tier of feats, they are pretty much on the same level, infinite/conceptual (breaking history, moving destiny, lifting infinity, things like that) is their upper level of strenght shown, and they beat or killed similar level of characters, from the Skyfather to the Cosmic Being in their best feats under their own character powerset range. Both have denied beings that are pratically the Editors incarnated in the comics (Supes defied the Monitors, Thor defied Those Who Sit Above in the Shadows) And both have been beaten by character far less than their base tier would indicate when at their lowest. So given the possible overlap, both can win a phisical fight given on the context of such an occasion.

it seems that you are willingly underestimating the shown potential for characters you like less by drawing conclusions not actually directly correlated to the comics themselves as a whole, but just focusing on specific occasions who are contextually based, ignoring the range the whole history permits to use in a battleboard for those you dislike, but then again since you then refuted to see similarities in showings who are pretty much comparable, and decided to see things only your own way and give more credence to one aspect instead of considering the whole, i don't really see how you can expect people to take your opinion as logically based.

i tried to explain why it's plenty possible to consider Thor comparable to superman in a direct fight, but since you refuse to take any possibility, despite author intent (both Jurgens and Busiek said that it was possible for Thor to win such a rematch after all) or any range based discussion, under consideration and keep going back to specific occasions cristallizing them as if they were "the rule" just because they happened once, and worse misreading most of them as a one dimensional declaration of superiority, well, i can see when logical discourse fails and is no longer viable. No reason to keep arguing when the arguments are so evidently ill recieved and not wanted... Considering what busiek said in the post you yourself linked to, there is quite a bit of quantifying such things when there is no need to do so. and Peers can certainly block a hit from a peer and knock one out, it happens all the time in boxing matches; if two weightlifters who both can benchpress 400kg tried to push each other back, one of them will eventually lose even if they can lift the same amount. It all comes down to condition when peers fight, not lack of potential strenght or power on the side of the fighter. Otherwise the fight would not be necessary and the winner could be declared before they step into the ring. Not only Busiek, but pretty much most authors if pressed would agree that this is a true aspect to consider in comic fights. there is no quantifying it cleanly, it all depends on so many factors...

so, to conclude, i think it's not unreasonable to see Thor as very close to Supes in a fistfight; thanks to the relative nature of use of powerset depending on plot, it's pretty likely that the ratio of win/loss could vary wildly, if there is even a slight change in the conditions that tips it one way or another, but no one seem to be beyond the range of the other. Relatively also Thor is more likely to be able to exploit Supes weaknesses than the reverse, which is a point that in a full out fight should also be considered, in JLA/Avengers it was used during the last battle effectively, Vision had to expend all his solar power reserves to recharge Superman midway to make sure he got to the finish line.



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