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Post By
Braugi

Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 398
In Reply To
motifian

Member Since: Sat Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 690
Subj: while I think Zvelf overestimates how much editorial thought went into Superman vs. Darkseid...
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 at 09:46:39 am EST (Viewed 17 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Another Battle Scan: Superman vs. Darkseid: Action Comics #586
Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 at 10:34:08 pm EST (Viewed 23 times)

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      Not in that TPB published by marvel AFTER infinity abyss.

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        By your logic it's not applicable.



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    You mean your total distortion of my logic. The Ka-Zar trade, as per my statement, is NOT named Ka-Zar vs. Thanos and nothing in the trade indicates any change in retcon status. However, putting a Superman-Darkseid fight whose retcon is already ambiguous at best, into a collection titled Superman vs. Darkseid as the first story and the story that takes up the most space in the entire collection is DC taking the stance that this is indeed Superman fighting Darkseid in this story and not Superman fighting Desaad.


No, it's just your logic. Nonsensical as it is.

Marvel releasing a TPB featuring Ka Zar fighting Thanos isn't Ka Zar fighting Thanos but Superman fighting Darkseid in a TPB means its not Desaad.

Way to go.


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        It's part of Superman's flight and speed that he can lead Darkseid's omegas right back to him.
      It's affect are not part of Superman's powers. Thus invalidated. Try again.



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    So anytime anyone uses their environment to their advantage in a fight to win, they didn't really win? So anytime anyone takes control of Mjolnir and hits Thor with it, that person didn't beat Thor? Your made-up criteria is nonsense. Superman redirecting Darkseid's own attack back onto him is completely fair, Darkseid hasn't looked unduely affected by that attack in these fights, and Superman went on to beat Darkseid with his own fists.


It's not using environmental advantages. It's using an opponents power back to himself.

Superman can't use omegas himself, thus it's invalidated.

Try again.


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        That's ridiculous. That's like saying an interception doesn't count in football when the quarterback throws a bad pass.
      Sorry man, comics are not football.



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    The analogy nevertheless stands.


No, it doesn't.


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          Darkseid's powers are depleted akin to a short circuit when hit by his own omega beams. It's not a question of durability.
        You just completely made that up!
      Nope.



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    Quite the rebuttal there with no proof whatsoever. So yes, you just completely made that up.


If only.


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        Darkseid states right here that his intent is to kill Superman with the omegas, so yes, with full power, and Superman takes Darkseid's most powerful attack repeatedly and never goes down in this fight.
      In AOS 595? Darkseid was weakened.



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    Wrong. Darkseid was weakened later by Brainiac 13.


Brainiac had already attacked apokolips by Lex tower and extinguished firepits of apokolips which weakened Darkseid.


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      Darkseid stunned Thor who was unable to move and had to be handed mjolnir from Diana.



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    Right, Thor was just briefly stunned by the attack, not ko'd, and Thor also showed he could block the omegas earlier in the fight.


Yes, just like he can block attacks from Odin and Thanos who have never stunned Thor with one blast.


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        Darkseid's omegas did absolutely nothing to a hungry Galactus who then casually blasted Darkseid away.
      Galactus was saved by his essential nature to reality. Otherwise a few giants powered by a fraction of Darkseid's power overpowered Galactus.

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      Again, you're just making things up. Nothing in the comic says anything about Galactus being saved by his nature. Galactus simply acts as if nothing at all happened. And Darkseid's giants knock Galactus over, but he just ignores them as he has the Silver Surfer fight them instead and the Surfer handles them all by himself.


    John Byrne had made it clear that Galactus was an essential part of the cosmos and hence can't be erased from reality.

    Galactus was staggered and fell before the giants before Surfer saved him. That was made clear. It wasn't just knocking over Galactus and he ignored nothing.


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        And Orion has also killed Darkseid.
      Not under his own power. He was sent by the source to kill Darkseid.



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    Being sent and being given power are two different things.


In this case both are same. He also tossed away Superman like nothing when he couldn't do anything like that before.


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          That's more than either Odin or Thanos can claim regarding these characters.
        Wrong. The only time Odin has fought Surfer, Odin one-shot Surfer, and unlike Darkseid, it wasn't a total blindside.
      So?



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    So? You just wrote that Darkseid blindsiding Surfer was more than Odin can claim regarding Surfer! So... you're wrong!


Wut? I said there was no indication that Surfer can take a direct omega beam too.

He was overpowered by a bunch of parademons in that story. Not even worth effort for Darkseid.


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      There was no indication Surfer could survive a direct attack from Darkseid if he knew the attack was coming. Darkseid also overpowered Galactus using a fraction of his power creating a few giants.



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    Surfer is known for his speed. He could dodge the omegas just as well as Superman can and even then, Surfer could just put up a force field to block the omegas. Since Superman's heat vision can do it, Surfer's force field can do it. Galactus, who was explicitly stated to be hungry and weakened, ignored Darkseid's giants, and the narration itself stated that Galactus getting staggered was of no consequence.


Surfer is known for his flight speed. He can't maneuver like Superman and has never dodged attacks like that.

There is no chance he is taking a direct omega beam attack.

Superman's heat vision just deflected omega beams at full power and Superman had to run away again. Surfer's force field will be ripped apart judge like Surfer.

There was no such thing mentioned. Galactus was overpowered by the giants.


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      Odin koed himself fighting Galactus.



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    And knocked Galactus out in the process. Darkseid unleashed his ultimate attack on a weakened, hungry Galactus who completely shrugged it off and blasted Darkseid away like a gnat with Darkseid needing Orion to lift up the rubble under which Darkseid was buried.


Darkseid only needs a fraction of his power to overpower Galactus.

Odin wishes he was that powerful.


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        Odin holds back when he fights his son for obvious reasons.
      He was trying to kill him possessed by Infinity and when he was convinced he was Amon Ra. He failed to even ko Thor both times.



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    Odin has beaten Thor numerous times easily.


Like? You haven't answered why Odin was unable to ko Thor with five bloodlusted blasts while possessed by Infinity.


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      Squirrel Girl and Kyle Rayner have defeated Thanos straight up.



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    In your desperate dreams.


In comics too.

his point is clear IMO. The Kazar TPB is not specified and marketed as 'Kazar vs. Thanos', its just showing some Kazar issues and features him fighting someone...it could be anyone, but is not marketed specifically as vs. Thanos.

the Superman vs. Darkseid TPB is specifically marketed as battles between those two characters.

Were it instead a TPB that showed issues 4-9 that happened to have the fight in it, Zvelf wouldn't have a point at all. If it were a collection called 'Really cool Superman fights where he looks like a badass', Zvelf wouldn't have a point. His point is that it is specifically marketed as Superman vs. Darkseid, so by implication, he's saying they are clearly indicating that it was Darkseid, not someone impersonating DS. Now, had the TPB come out before the retcon, he'd lose his point as well, but his point is that it was released AFTER the retcon.

Now, again, I would wager that this was not an intentional, thought out thing, but rather some junior editor was putting together a TPB that he thought would sell, and did a quick look at Superman vs. Darkseid, and was likely unaware of any potential retcon, and released a book with some cool fights....but zvelf's logic is sound.


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