Dave Galanter
December 1st 1969 - December 12th 2020
He was loved.

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Member Since: Fri Jul 14, 2017
Posts: 894
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Member Since: Sun Jul 30, 2017
Posts: 2,699
Subj: There is a big difference between this and What If stories....
Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 at 10:02:04 am EST (Viewed 285 times)
Reply Subj: Re: What do you mean by 'not true'....
Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 at 05:16:11 pm EST (Viewed 264 times)

Previous Post

    So, in the 616 universe, Onslaught happened, Franklin created an alternate universe where things seemed very different, but many mainstream Marvel characters went to that universe and existed, though in many cases their histories appeared different. Later, they came back to the mainstream, 616 universe.

Thanks for your reply!

    I think we all agree on that much.

Indeed we do.

    Then the question is, what is a real showing. When you use terms like 'all the events that transpired are not true', I absolutely disagree. They happened. Just like the events in What If's 'happened' at least within the context of their own universe. Whether they can be used to analyze 616 characters is a different thing and generally not useful.

What I'm saying is events which transpired there occurred in an entirely different time-line. That time-line does not align with 616 continuity.

    That said, Age of Apocalypse gave us Xman, who interacted with 616 characters in the 616 universe, and his perspective may give us some insight into relative characters in both of those universes, though Nate's showings don't necessarily give us insight as to his own 616 counterpart's capabilities.

    Now, we have a 616 character that went to Franklin's universe. There was another Thor there too. A 616 Celestial went to the pocket universe as well. That Celestial changed Thor into a frog. Yes, all that happened. There MAY be questions around it though.

Like you stated, The Heroes Reborn Saga is no different than the old What-IF stories. They both utilized original 616 characters and placed them into a alternate reality with tweaks to origins, histories, and decisions/events that did not occur in our time=line therefore it is not true history as we know it. Did What-IF stories occur? Yes they did. Are they considered cannon in the sense these stories actually happened? Yes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, because they did happen. Are What-IF stories considered a part of 616 continuity. No they are not because outcomes were changed from 616 our time-stream.

Heroes Reborn and What-IF stories are also not 616 future which are true untainted cannon/continuity. They are an alternate universe/time-line which means ANYTHING can occur from the beginning. In the case of Heroes Reborn that is precisely what happened. As opposed to 616 time stream possibilities that change history due to a past/present decision, chance anomaly that changes a character(s)/Earth's future.

    Was it the 616 Thor that was changed? If so, was that Thor altered by Franklin in power level or function? How about the Celestial?

Good question. Hammer-time informed me of a Franklin created Thor construct. From the Heroes Reborn website -

"While most heroes were reborn instantly on this new world (later dubbed Counter-Earth), Thor was not. Instead Franklin constructed Counter-Earth's own version of Thor. The reason behind this is unknown, but it could be possible that Thor's godly nature prevented Franklin from transporting him to Counter-Earth right away and in order to maintain the reality he created, subconsciously created a Thor construct."

Why couldn't Franklin transport Thor initially along with everyone else? We don't know. Was his person, powers, abilities, mental state, etc the exact duplicate of his original self? We don't know for sure because Franklin couldn't do it the first time. Maybe Franklin had to modify something within Thor to make his appearance happen. All pure speculation because we don't know and will never know the answer to that.

Another question is, did Franklin universe compel Thor or other characters to act differently than they normally would? In other words was Franklin pulling any strings here or manipulating events? Were all of their actions of their own free will? Especially with their memories erased from the beginning?

    If it was indisputably the 616 Thor, then yes, a Celestial turned him into a frog. This would be true if it happened in the Marvel vs. DC crossover, or if Thor and the celestial traveled to the Ultimate Universe, or any other universe.

Do we know for certain all the laws and physics of other universes will always be the same as ours? There have been other stories in Marvel and DC in which universes/dimensions work on different set of laws. Some apparent and obvious others subtle but differences still exist. I've always been leery of other pocket dimensions but I see the need for it to create stories of course. And I'm not trying to come up with any excuses here, that's my own take on it.

    Likewise, if Spider Man and Thor are magically transported to one of the other universes referenced in Exiles and other comics, and there, those 616 characters faced off, and Spidey beat Thor, especially if it were written in the mainstream 616 comic, then Spider Man would have beaten Thor, and the showing would be canon.

If there were absolutely no changes to them to include histories, origins, or plot devices I would agree. Heck Spidey beat Firelord straight up in 616. Has that been retconned?

    In this case, to summarize, you may raise the question over whether Ashema changed Thor or a Thor construct created by Franklin into a frog, but at the end of the day, that it happened in a different setting does not negate that it happened, barring a retcon of some sort.

Ashema changed Thor into a frog. The scan has shown her doing so in an alternate universe. She has the power to change just about everyone in 616 as well.

What if's are almost universally using characters from alternate universes. Regardless of what universe it happens in, they are alternate versions of a character.

In this situation, it could well be that they ARE the 616 character i.e. they are the same character. Yes, it happened in another universe, but it involves the same characters.

It IS possible the laws of physics in that universe are different, though we have nothing indicating that.

IMO, for the characters actually transported to the HR universe, showings between them are no different than showings in the 616 universe. The location doesn't matter and it is the equivalent of them fighting on the Shi'ar homeworld or whatever.

Or, are you saying that if 616 Thor and Hulk join Exiles, then travel to earth 167, get angry at each other and fight, then the result of that fight is non canon, just because it happened in another location, especially if there is no indication of 'differing laws of physics' or whatever? Even if there were different laws of physics, that the fight would happen between the two 616 versions of the character makes it canon....but, like when Hulk was hampered with Savage Banner, there may be mitigating circumstances.

Now, if it was the Thor construct that it happened to, its more in question, and more likely a non showing.

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