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Post By
seeker

In Reply To
Reverend Meteor

Subj: Re: Atheists unite!!!!
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:57:07 pm EST (Viewed 2 times)
Reply Subj: Atheists unite!!!!
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 06:39:50 pm EST (Viewed 2 times)

Previous Post

> This is just something I’ve been wondering different people’s opinions on for awhile. It is not intended to offend anyone or their religious beliefs nor is this being used for anything besides my own personal curiosity.
>
> One justification for human dominion of the planet is that humans are a superior species or of a higher order of species than others.

We have fire and opposable digits...we are superior. The problem is we're also very stupid \:\)

Sometimes I like animals more than people.

> This gives humans dominion over the planet and depending on who you ask either the right to do with it and the animals, such as killing them for food or sport, on it whatever we want to other people who claim it gives us a greater responsibility to the planet. Support for this is found in the justification of different religions to humans being more intelligent in at least some sense and being higher up on the food chain. While this is an arguable point let us assume for a moment that humans are of a higher order than other animals.
>
> This leads us into the theology part. Most modern definitions of the monotheistic god differ on wording and details, but usually describe G-d as:
>
> “an anthropomorphic being of both creation and destruction who is aside from the highest being, the most powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent, and perfect.”
>
> Then there is the idea of gods. Here the definition is less concrete and varies from a humanlike figure with great power such as control over nature to a being that is the personification of a concept or object with great power. The one thing nearly all descriptions of G-d or gods include is they are often considered to be beings of a higher order above humans.
>
> With all of that in mind and assuming for a moment that gods are of a higher order above humans AND that G-d or gods are real what are your opinions/answers to the following questions:
>
> Remember, for the sake of discussion assume that the being in the question is real, is a higher order of being, and what the claim is.
>
> 1.    Inspired by Neil Gaiman’s The Sandman, is the greatest thing a human can achieve in life to die at the hands of G-d since doing so would serve a higher power and at the same time dispel any questions about the existence of such beings? What if it was dying at the hands of a polytheistic god such as Apollo?

I'm not a fan of dying to serve someone else's agenda

Besides Apollo was a pederast...

> 2.    Since G-d created this world and everything in it, knows everything, and is perfect does G-d therefore have the right to do whatever He wants with this world?

Pretending for the moment that he's real....I guess he has the right to do what he wants.

My problem is not what he does but what he expects out of us. He can't expect us to be perfect if the world isn't perfect

> If G-d decided it was best for a world for a person to die without explaining why, even an infant or virtuous person would it be alright for G-d to kill that person? What about an entire people or nation if it was in the name of justice?

He's "God"...I guess the rules wouldn't apply.

This is why I can't buy into the concept of "God". I can't accept that this aloof omnipotent being chooses to do nothing to help good people yet demands their obedience.

> 3.    Gods plural were rarely thought of as all-powerful, all-knowing or even all good, but they are still thought of as a higher order of being and sometimes the embodiment of whatever they represented. In ancient Greece Zeus was thought of as the dispenser of justice and knowing pretty much everything or at least most things were his will, if acting in this capacity of justice does Zeus have the right to kill a person even if to human eyes the man is an upstanding member of the community? What about sending a plague to strike an entire town to get at one murderer and letting the community figure out who the murderer is?

Not a fan of the idea...

> 4.    What about a lesser god such as Ares, ancient Greek god of savage warfare or Tyr, Norse god of honorable warfare? Does he have the right to strike down a mortal who has offended him? What about an entire community? Would it depend on the god? (Ex. A more benevolent on such as Baldur or Athena)

Sure. I stomp on ants and roaches.

> 5.    If G-d wanted you to die and told you it is for the good of Earth, but would not explain why would you do it?

um...what makes you think I WOULD do it if given the choice?

> 6.    What if polytheistic god wanted you to die without explaining why and claimed it was for the good of Earth? Would you go ahead and die? What if they explained it to you? Would it depend on the god? (Ex. A more benevolent on such as Baldur or Athena)

If given the choice I would let earth suffer along with me \:\)

> 7.    Should G-d be held to the same standards as humans? Or due to being beyond human are He/they beyond human concepts of good and evil or at least human judgment and morality?

I guess it depends. If "God" holds us to those same standards and expects us to be good not evil then he really shouldn't hold himself in a position to be evil. If God can be evil then why should we worship him?

> 8.    The same above except this time for gods instead of G-d.

Yes. Since they aren't everything, just aspects of this thing or that thing I guess they aren't perfect just like humans.

> Thank you for taking the time to respond to this.

> > This is just something I’ve been wondering different people’s opinions on for awhile. It is not intended to offend anyone or their religious beliefs nor is this being used for anything besides my own personal curiosity.
> >
> > One justification for human dominion of the planet is that humans are a superior species or of a higher order of species than others.
>
> We have fire and opposable digits...we are superior. The problem is we're also very stupid \:\)
>
Ironically true. We are at the same time the smartest and dumbest species on the planet.



> > With all of that in mind and assuming for a moment that gods are of a higher order above humans AND that G-d or gods are real what are your opinions/answers to the following questions:
> >
> > Remember, for the sake of discussion assume that the being in the question is real, is a higher order of being, and what the claim is.
> >
> > 1.    Inspired by Neil Gaiman’s The Sandman, is the greatest thing a human can achieve in life to die at the hands of G-d since doing so would serve a higher power and at the same time dispel any questions about the existence of such beings? What if it was dying at the hands of a polytheistic god such as Apollo?
>
> I'm not a fan of dying to serve someone else's agenda
>
> Besides Apollo was a pederast...
>
I just cited Apollo as an example. I wasn't trying to get to specific.


> Pretending for the moment that he's real....I guess he has the right to do what he wants.
>
> My problem is not what he does but what he expects out of us. He can't expect us to be perfect if the world isn't perfect
>
I wonder about that often as well.

>
> This is why I can't buy into the concept of "God". I can't accept that this aloof omnipotent being chooses to do nothing to help good people yet demands their obedience.
>
I've thought about it at times and it is one of those problems. If you do too much people would depend on G-d too much. Not enough and the world goes down the toilet. One view is that G-d does enough to let the world gets by, but due to free will allows humans quite a bit of freedom. Of course, if you are suffering this doesn't comfort you much.
How much does G-d help before he becomes a dictator? Rebellion anyone?

>
> > 4.    What about a lesser god such as Ares, ancient Greek god of savage warfare or Tyr, Norse god of honorable warfare? Does he have the right to strike down a mortal who has offended him? What about an entire community? Would it depend on the god? (Ex. A more benevolent on such as Baldur or Athena)
>
> Sure. I stomp on ants and roaches.
>
That's one perspective. If the ant or roach could think they might take issue with that, but since from one view gods are so far above us we would b like that to them.

> > 5.    If G-d wanted you to die and told you it is for the good of Earth, but would not explain why would you do it?
>
> um...what makes you think I WOULD do it if given the choice?
>
Inate human goodness? :-/

> > 6.    What if polytheistic god wanted you to die without explaining why and claimed it was for the good of Earth? Would you go ahead and die? What if they explained it to you? Would it depend on the god? (Ex. A more benevolent on such as Baldur or Athena)
>
> If given the choice I would let earth suffer along with me \:\)
>
If your dead you may not be suffering. \:\-D

> > 7.    Should G-d be held to the same standards as humans? Or due to being beyond human are He/they beyond human concepts of good and evil or at least human judgment and morality?
>
> I guess it depends. If "God" holds us to those same standards and expects us to be good not evil then he really shouldn't hold himself in a position to be evil. If God can be evil then why should we worship him?
>
> > 8.    The same above except this time for gods instead of G-d.
>
> Yes. Since they aren't everything, just aspects of this thing or that thing I guess they aren't perfect just like humans.
>
But if they are aspects would not they perhaps be so fundamentally different from humans that the same morality may not be applicable to them?


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