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Post By
Paladin

Location: Prague, Bohemia
Member Since: Tue Apr 06, 2010
Posts: 1,123
In Reply To
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,503
Subj: Re: Systemic racism
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 03:15:05 pm EDT (Viewed 167 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Systemic racism
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 02:52:05 pm EDT (Viewed 170 times)



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          I know you guys are probably tired of this topic but these are the buzzwords "systemic racism" and "white privlidge" etc.

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          I guess, but does not mean they are not issues. I feel we lose track of some things when some words enter pop culture or common usage. Some will dismiss them out of hand because of it.

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              I just wonder if you would have an answer to Elder's question here? It's clear he is talking with stats while the interviewer is talking about generalities.

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              Not sure I agree, he is mostly using pretty conservative talking points about the issues. There may be something to them but there are something to the other side of it too.

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                For instance, police shootings that are brought up. One can bring up statistics if you want, but the fact is those stats are flawed. Even as estimates. We do not know. Those sorts of things are not reported the same way or consistently. So it is not possible to form a full statistical argument on the matter.

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                  For that matter, one could just pick their side from an ideological point of view and run there. Many on the conservative side will assume that the police did nothing wrong with gunning down these people. Liberals can go too far and basically assume that police should not defend themselves. Depending on the extent one wants to back law enforcement or whatever you will lean one way or another.

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                    A statistics would be that African Americans are about 2.5 times as likely to get killed by police as whites. Now, this reflects things other than just the flat statistic and is in and of itself misleading. However, based on the information available it does seem like AA or minorities are more likely to get gunned down. Even if the crime is non-violent.

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                      This is a complicated issue, moreso than people make it. There are questions of abuse of power vs perception of abuse of power vs general generations of distrust in police for varying reasons.

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                        The interviewer does not seem as prepared here but the other guy, Elder is not doing particularly well either. At least from an honest point of view.

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                            "Give an example of systemic racism."

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                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

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                                Please watch the video so you know what I'm trying to get at here because if you answer without doing so, you'll misunderstand my question. I'm not really able to articulate it as well as I'd like. As always, thanks in advance for any replies.

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                            I think he is mixing several issues. I could provide counter examples of points to what he is doing. And in some of the instances one should be a bit disturbed by the videos we see. As there are many examples of a white person doing something similar and everything going fine.

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                              It is apples and oranges and harder to link to race alone but it is hard to admit that there is not some bias.

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                                I would say if somebody were to ask me the version of racism we see now is more subtle but still there. What are large scale examples. Voter ID laws are pretty clear examples. In general one could argue that the winning party is trying to maximize their votes. This is true, but when one redistricts minorities to diminish their political clout it is racism, sexist or whatever. Even if one assumes that it is made solely on political lines than it could be a First Amendment violation.

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                                  The clearest examples in recent times, the first place called out for it, was police and judicial system in Ferguson using the poor minority community as a source of income. Looking for reasons to charge them with offenses to keep everything going in the first place.

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        Not sure if you can call this one racism. Cops do the same thing in my country. More poverty than race.



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    It was found to be based on race during investigations. As minority poor regions were exclusively targeted.


really? How did they determine that? Do they not do this to poor whites? I think most districts have unofficial quotas. If cops arent giving out tickets it looks like they arent doing their jobs.

But I'll take your word on that (as I'm too lazy to check:-)


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        I think the only way this Elder fellow comes off as convincing is if you already feel that way about the issue. As there are some incomplete statistics for either side to use.

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          Is one more willing to tolerate "minor racism" or abuses of power or does one have the right to trail and life unless it is taken away. It is even more complicated than that but the guy comes off as callous to me. A talking head.

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        I guess I am a little like the interviewer, then. I have been told there are racist barriers in the institutions of the USA, so I just take that as a given. But when asked to give evidence I don't have any facts to quote, which is I guess what I was interested in.



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    There are but they are not quite as overt. For whatever reason we expect things to be as clear as say Jim Crow laws. They are not. It is harder to prove them now but it does not mean they are not there.



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      I don't agree or disagree (it's a subject I have no first-hand experience in), I was just interested if there was evidence beyond the anecdotal examples the interviewer (and yourself) have given. Basically I wanted to see if anyone had stats to counter Elder's. I mean its one thing to say stats are flawed but what else do you have to go on then? A feeling? Subtle racism that you know is there? your gut?



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    I have no first hand experience but have heard enough anecdotal evidence and enough somewhat valid statistics to make it questionable at the least.


I think Elder's point was that it is anecdotal. Which is why it doesnt stand up to scrutiny (or in court).


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    I would need to listen through again to go point by point.


You don't have to. It was a fairly simple question. I was looking for someone to give a concrete example.


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    You use the best representational numbers you can get with the understanding that the numbers are flawed. Any responsible analysis or anybody reporting on them has to make that clear. These sorts of things are not reported the same and that leads to problems with comparing apples to oranges.



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    One just needs to be very careful. Anybody coming off as knowing the absolute truth without acknowledging that material is not being honest.



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      I don't know, I was just looking for a clear answer to Elder's challenge.



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    I must have missed his challenge. He seemed like he was ranting more to me. Almost everything he was saying was highly slanted towards a conservative ideology.


That might have been part of the problem. You were dismissing him as a conservative so his stats don't matter. This seems to be the problem. Left and right aren't bothering to listen to each other because they are painting the other side with broad strokes.


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    That does not mean it is wrong, but it means that nothing should be taken for sure without review. I do not mean looking at both sides sources. Try to find reasonable sources and check it out.


Again, I was looking at it from the interviewers perspective. If you put me on the spot, I probably would have had some vague (anecdotal) ideas and he was prepared to counter.


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      Thanks for your response, tho.





thanks, nice article.

thats fine. But again, without stats in support of it, it really falls apart.

I do feel there must be more to it that gut feelings and anecdotal evidence. But until it is demonstrated, I'll have to say Mr Elder has stats on his side.



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