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Post By
MysteryMan

Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 627
In Reply To
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,083
Subj: Re: So far 300,000+ signatures requesting that antifa be called a terrorist group by The White House
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 at 08:06:58 pm EDT (Viewed 58 times)
Reply Subj: Re: So far 300,000+ signatures requesting that antifa be called a terrorist group by The White House
Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 at 12:20:30 pm EDT (Viewed 70 times)



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              They are definitely controversial...is this a reasonable request?

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              I am not an expert on them but the definition of terrorism is performing some criminal (usually violence) to enact political change or aims.

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                By that definition they are not. At least not that I know about. Keep in mind that many Hate Groups in the US perform acts of terrorism but are never labeled terrorist.

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                  They are not a very collected group either, usually responding and showing up to white supremacists rallies and similar. So, are they trying to enact political change but beating on would be fascists? Is that enough to be a Hate crime?

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                    Does not defend the violence at all, but they are not terrorists. At least not unless we want to start calling numerous groups terrorists. And can they be labeled a hate group if they are going after a belief as opposed to going after people for intrinsic qualities?

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                      Criminal may be true in many or some cases. Terrorist is way too far. At least based on what we have so far unless we want to start calling loads of other groups terrorist.

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                        It would be ironic that the "both sides" do it labels one side as a terrorist but the side causing and filled with the organized anger and hatred gets let go. It would be fitting in sick ways.

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            I can agree with this, was kind of my view as well.

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              Essentially:

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                They are a Hate group.
                Neo-Nazi's are a Hate group.

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                  Neither of them are terrorists...at least at this point.

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          I am not sure I agree that they are a HAte Group. At least not by definition. As they would be a hate group for fascists. The definition of hate groups does not include thoughts, opinions and such.

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            It is about intrinsic qualities (religion is also in there). Hating somebody for their opinions does not make them a hate group. Unless we want to start labeling most people as members of a hate group.

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              Most people hate Nazi's and some other things. By that train of logic they would be part of a large world wide hate group.

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                Does not mean that the violence part is ok, but I do not think hate group or terrorist is appropriate for the movement. Criminal at times, but not sure what label to put on them. I think one could potentially question their views of things and what their definitions are.

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                  One would have to try and make the claim that they were after white supremacists for them being white or something similar to that for them to be a hate group per se.

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        Criminal behavior without a doubt.
        Hate...well....

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          https://www.google.com/search?q=antifa+slogan&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja-r3m3YHWAhUK0IMKHaNMCJkQsAQIJQ&biw=1680&bih=904

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            Look at 7th row down...unless White Pride is a special term that doesn't mean White People...seems like it does call out whitey.

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              There are a least a few calls to kill people as well.

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                Violent oppressive fear-mongering anarchists then a better title?



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    Not saying some of their views are not hateful in direction. I am talking about the definition of Hate Group. Just because some group hates something does not make them a hate group. Somebody could really hate Marvel comics. Does not mean they and those like them are in a Hate Group. They just hate Marvel comics for whatever reason.



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    I am not sure that being able to find google images is a prereq for being a hate group either. Nor how reflective on the whole. The group is not really very organized from the reports I have seen. There are numerous motivations in it. Most only agree about disliking nazi's, fascists or racists.



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    I feel a little embarrassed that I have to say this, but "White Pride" is a common creed among the KKK and similar racist groups. It does not sound as racist and it is why they took it up, it helps make it easier to connect to the mainstream and those with just more subtler racial/racist impulses.



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    Most of those using that term are pretty virulent. So, a logo mocking it really is not what you think it is. As many signs at such rallies will also be pushing for white pride right along with various things tearing down everybody else.



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    I find the idea odd either way. As it is pretending that western culture is not a reflection of a predominantly white European ancestor ed culture came up with anyway. All the while not having the best relations with numerous groups. So, outright to me and somewhat on a tangent, that it could seriously be anything other than sort of a loaded term is way off the mark.



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    Not saying that about you, just saying that I find the term to be ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but I have issues it being used to put others down. I think that gets lost at times.



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    At this point any group coming out to try and point out differences of any sort will almost immediately be demonized. Even if they have some point. Just consider BLM, not the actions by all of them, but the message. That one race is having something happen to them by authority figures. Did we as a society decide to look into it and see if there was anything to it? Nope, we immediately had part of the country say they were the problem and that All Lives Matter. Dismissing the case out of hand. Again, not saying that whatever riots or whatever are ok, I am just saying that initially it is worth a look at and still is.



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    We have just hit a bad place. Bad things are either normalized with false equivalence or issues of import are cast aside in ideological and political hand wringing. It is fair to point out if a premise by one side is outright false but it seems we should want as much objective evidence as possible. As opposed to outright demonetization.



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    All that said, some groups deserve demonetization.



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    Sorry for the major side track there. The actions of violence are criminal. Not sure if they are a full on criminal organization yet. I just disagree with various labels.



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    And honestly the antifa movement as it is, is hurting the cause in some ways. Given the current period of trying to find equivalence in everything it is just acting to normalize Neo-Nazi's and the like. As it gives people an out to pretend like they are not an issue or groups like Sovereign Citizens and like.


I suppose I just ascribe more to Martin Luther Kings peaceful way of approaching a problem and using discourse and was very much against violence. He brought change and made many think and didn't promote violence.

Agree, many groups do need to be demonized...antifa imo seems to be a cure that is just not much better than the illness.