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Subj: Re: The Democrats have failed as badly as the Republicans
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 at 03:15:17 pm EST (Viewed 153 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The Democrats have failed as badly as the Republicans
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 at 10:32:15 am EST (Viewed 142 times)
I deleted my initial response, this will be brief.
Quote:The DNC did not control primary voters votes. They picked Clinton. And there is little evidence that Sanders would have won, as the GOP would have just labeled him a socialist and it would be more or less the same general issue on a bigger scale.
Quote:Incorrect...all preliminary polls showed Clinton would lose to Trump but beat the other republican hopefuls. Bernie was polled as beating Trump and some of the other republican hopefuls' but possibly not all.
That is not true. All polls did not show that. Most showed varying people beating Trump. And it is not entirely accurate to look at those, as primary polling is more inaccurate that standard polling.
Sanders was far from a flawless candidate. I liked him more than Clinton by a mile and voted for the man. However, Clinton also had massive leads in the general outside of when scandals broke with the email system.
Many were already a bit bias against Clinton. Some for valid reasons and some not so much. It also did not help that the FBI seemed to announce non-scandals at bad times that seemed to help Trump.
It was an odd election that went from scandal to scandal. And neither candidate was very likable. However, I am skeptical that many American's would vote for a guy calling himself a socialist in the general election.
That would seem to drive away many so-called independents right there.
Quote:The only one to blame for Trump are the people that voted for Trump. Those on the line could argue they were pushed by not liking Clinton more but even if that is their logic, or your hypothesis, one has to ask...
Quote:Yes...keep denying any failures on the Democrats side...and we get Trump for 4 more years. Keep blaming and pointing fingers and never consider what the Democrats should do better on.
Who is denying their failures? They had a bad candidate, but the GOP had a worse one. The ones that voted for Trump voted for the worse guy. How is it not their fault?
Even if you want to argue that the Dems had a hand in their own downfall, which is fair, you are also seem to be saying (based on this and other claims) that the voters that voted for Trump basically had no choice.
They made their choice. And picked probably the worst president in US history, that has gone to not change and gradually make every issue more partisan than ever. I hold those people responsible more than anything.
Most of my extended family voted for the man. Most were conservative anyway but their reasons were not because they disliked Clinton (they did), they basically loved that Trump was going to get rid of the Mexicans and bring all the jobs back.
Lies, but ones that many believed. And he got more of his people out in more spots. That is the name of the game at this point in politics. Like it or not. And just like if Dems had a poor candidate elected, it would be the fault of the people that voted for him or her not taking the entire person into context.
I suppose you can argue the lesser of two evils, however it does not compute to me how Trump is the lesser of any two evils anywhere. At least not on the stage we had last year. But conservatives voted for the man and cheered his nationalism. They have no blame though.
Quote:what let them overcome all the things Trump had done to that point that were just as bad or worse? Blaming somebody else for a given choice ignores the fact that there was a choice and one had to accept that they voted for a serial sexual abuser, a man who abused those that worked for him, was a con artist, ripped off loads of people, is a serial liar on an epic scale, appears to be overally friendly to dictators and tyrants, has no understanding of government, no respect for science and no respect for any rule other than his own, loads of conflicts of interest and no clear way for him to remove himself from it, that he would bring his family into positions of power and that he surrounded himself with unqualified people.
Quote:And that ignores the brewing scandals with Russia that were downplayed by the media, ignoring FBI findings on Clinton for talking point purposes, playing up racial hatred, xenophobia and so on and so forth. The guy had no coherent policy on taxes, immigration (other than a wall) and basically anything of importance to the US. Other than the fact that he was loud and said he was the only one who could fix the problem.
Quote:Clinton was part of the problem. But anybody who voted for Trump has to square with everything I listed and more. And say that sounds ok to me. As opposed to Clinton whose biggest issue was not being found guilty of any illegal acts after having Russia and wikileaks work against the DNC. She was wrong with what she did, but it was also wrong for Trump to root for Russia in the whole thing.
Quote:Clinton is better choice than Trump for sure...but she had many problems
Oh, she is flawed. I am not saying she is not. My statement is that everything I said was known. People made their choice. And a pretty bad one.
Quote:1)There are many accusations about her Husbands molesting ways...and evidence she attacked her "fellow" women to shut them up.
2)The DNC garbage
3)Purely running on identity politics and being surprised when those she left out of her speeches in support of special interest grops didn't vote for her.
1. Yes, but Bill Clinton was not running for president. And while her actions were definitely negative. Trump bragged about grabbing women by the vagina, kissing without permission and had many accusers come out directly accusing them. He called them all liars.
How does it equate? One side is directly doing the stuff, the other side is more indirect. That is not close to the same. Trump was proud of it even.
2. I am not supportive of the DNC in general. I do not think many American's cared. Why would that matter more than Trump's campaign trying to get help from a foreign power to help out? Which one of those seems shadier?
3. I am going to call this one as bs. Both parties call on identity politics. The GOP and conservatives call to whites. The Dems are mostly minorities and some whites.
I am not sure why many just pretend that only Dems do this. There is a reason most with conservative leanings tend to be white. Not all by any means, but if you look at polling from the election more white people voted for Trump.
We can say that is because Dems drove them away but that is not true. White's always vote more for the GOP. Because they tend to support things the way they are. Which is more in favor of white people. Not saying they are all racist, but it is as much identity politics as the other. If not more.
We just hear that Dems or liberals need to reach out more. Not sure why we do not hear that as much with the GOP or conservatives. Not sure if we just give up and think the base will not do it.
I am speaking in generalities, but it is very true that whites mostly vote for the GOP. Particularly white men. That is not coincidence.
The both sides do it is hogwash in this case. And people that voted for Trump while holding their nose are just as responsible taking everything into account, or not knowing, as the guy who is a hard right loon.
Quote:It's not hogwash...its denying the facts. The Republicans are worse, but every time one side points a finger at the other it is later revealed they are acting poorly too (Ex: Al Frankin)
So, Al Frankin is the same as Trump bragging about molesting women and then accusing them all of being liars. Or Moore calling all his accusers liars but more or less admitting to dating teen girls at the time?
Frankin, at least for one, did apologize. I am in the camp that he should consider stepping down. However, he did eventually come clean on the first one (have not heard about the other).
Trump and Moore are guilty, but they just do not admitt it (Interestingly, Moore even likely met his wife while she was a teen and potentially underage when he went to watch a girls dance recidal).
And the both side do it thing is a mess because it is an excuse. It does not matter who does it. We need to hold them accountable. If a Dem does it they should get the ax or in trouble as much as anything.
But at the moment Frankin is being attacked by conservatives who will support Moore to the end. Moore should be disqualified, Trump should have been too and Frankin should more than likely step down.
Quote:Clinton was not a good candidate, that does not excuse Trump. Probably the worst candidate and one of the worst presidents to this point. Historic unpopularity being what it is, that is not a stretch to make.
Quote:True and not true. The nukes haven't flown yet...and that's all we kept hearing about. Continue to deny and blame others who don't vote like you...continue to demonize them and ignore their views. And prepare for another 7-years of Trump as you do so.
So, your standard is nukes or no nukes? I bet you have gone after other president for much less. Goal post moving much?
I am not blaming anybody but those that voted the way they did. You are making excuse for them. And will continue to do so. Basically then, those that voted for Trump had a gun to their head by Dems to vote for the guy.
That is pure hogwash. And I could use sterner language. If you check out polls and read stories most Trump voters are not worth reaching out to in the first place. Maybe at the margins.
I am just saying, that if you payed a little attention the way folks win elections is driving their base out. It is not winning over large numbers of voters. There are swing voters but most of those have tendencies.
And we need to stop pretending Trump won in a landslide. He did not win the popular vote and in the electoral college, in many swing states he won by bare margins. He drove his base out with partisanship, nationalism and promises that he never cared to keep.
If those people want to keep Trump around and other voters stay at home. Than we all deserve another 7 years of Trump.
I still cannot believe a nuclear war is your marker now. Come on man.
Look Raist bunnies...
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