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Subj: Re: I disagree with this on several grounds...
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 at 01:29:04 pm EST (Viewed 589 times)
Reply Subj: Re: I disagree with this on several grounds...
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 at 09:04:48 am EST (Viewed 476 times)
I think the problem starts when you put feelings above facts.
Quote:I am not sure what you are getting at here honestly. The definition of harassment always has an emotional context. There is no getting around that point.
What reaches the level of illegal and what qualifies as harrasment are not the same at all. Legal definitions are not THE end all be all.
It seems to me that in this modern victim culture we are actually incentivizing people to 'feel' harassed over next to nothing.
Quote:If we use the previous example, the woman raised a sexual harassment case against a man for saying (either jokingly or not?) "Men are better cooks than women." (another example that the left has no sense of humour but I digress).
Quote:I am not sure the issue with the woman have a problem with that. It is sexist.
So YOU think she had a point in raising a sexual harassment case against the man for saying "Men are better cooks than women"? I mean seriously?
Quote:Now either that woman has severe mentally fragile anxiety (in which case she is not fit to be out working in the 'real world' ) or she's a con artist playing the victim to get attention and/or money for herself or get that man fired.
Quote:How was the comment in the example phrased? I am just saying that you are coming at this entirely from the angle that it is the fault of the person being offended. Meaning, taking this to the extreme (as you are) that we must be differential to the most offensive person. Until something becomes illegal.
Any sort of unwelcomed* personal abuse (or physical abuse) should be reported.
*By unwelcomed I mean someone not part of an in-group not accustomed to its banter.
But in my experience anyone with such a thin skin (as the example we have discussed) or zero sense of humour will just get ostracized by the rest pretty quickly. They might be civil and professional, but they won't start or engage in conversation with them.
Quote:I know I wouldn't want to work or talk to such a woman, because basically ANYTHING could trigger her. In fact even NOT talking to her might trigger her.
Quote:Or you could just not be a jerk and say things that would be offensive.
She's a ticking timebomb ready to sue for harassment over anything why on Earth would anyone risk starting a conversation with her?
Quote:So when we allow feelings (which cannot be verified as true or not) to determine ACTUAL crime/harassment you run the twin problems that:
Quote:The example you gave was a poor one. He made the comment. That is a fact.
Exactly and anyone who got offended at that is so mentally fragile they shouldn't be IN work or around people. The same kind of morons upset by micro-aggressions and running to 'safe spaces'...people totally unprepared for the real world.
Quote:What if a guy walked by her in the haul and pulled a move of touching her breast and then blowing ito ff as an accident. She was offended, who cares? She should get a grip?
The first question is was it an accident or not and how would she know for certain?
But that's a difficult situation to be in, especially if its outside the work environment.
Quote:At one point would your scenario or logic make it not ok. The whole thing is merky but act professionally and be done with it. Do the job first and foremost in the work place.
I'd present the facts to management (at the workplace) and start from there. I agree with you about acting professionally.
Quote:People are mostly offended by stuff that is offensive. There is a counter movement by some that people are just offended by everything. Pick a group and they are offended by something but what is the reason for it. It is rarely that they are "snowflakes".
I agree, but again in my experience if you are THAT thin-skinned or humourless and you start calling harassment over comments like "Men are better cooks than women" no one will want to talk to you.
Quote:Individuals have varying tolerances to comments, but that still would only put the problem with them in a small minority. Actual harassment that goes unreported probably lacks what you would likely consider facts. Does not mean that it did not happen or was not worthy of being offended by.
If its in the workplace then report it to management. If its outside the workplace then its probably a more difficult proceedure.
Quote:So, now mentally ill people should get out of the work force?
If someone saying "Men are better cooks than women" triggers another person into reporting them for sexual harassment then (IMHO) that person doesn't have the mental stability to work in the real world.
Quote:I am just confused as to what would rise to harassment in your situation. And should everybody just get out of the work force except those who enjoy crude humor?
I've witnessed (what I considered) harassment and as a rule of thumb I'd start with personal abuse (against those not in the immediate 'group').
Quote:I am not saying not to banter, but don't be a jerk or unprofessional. There are many examples of a small group having their own sort of internal way of doing things and interacting. In many cases all male. Add a woman and she may be offended by the crude sexual sort of humor. So, the banter is no longer ok, if it ever was.
Totally agreed. In my (part time) workplace there is an effort to bring men and women (in the lunch room) together and there is a lot of banter from both which can be fun, sometimes cringe-worthy, often crude and occasionally bordering on offensive. The women generally give as good as they get and most everyone pretty much gets on well. A small handful of people either choose not to join in or sit with the main group and one guy in particular is disliked because of past events and takes his breaks at a different time.
Quote:The whole banter thing is easily adjusted in the respect you are getting at with a simple know your audience and co-workers. It is going to be rare that anybody runs off to HR for something small. And if they do there will not be much done about it if it was only a comment like you implied earlier.
Quote:They take things of a sexual nature very seriously in the world. And for good reason. It is and was a big problem.
Sexual or gender specific do you mean?
Men are better cooks than women seems gender specific (and a joke), rather than anything overtly 'sexual'.
Quote:I do not understand this argument. I did not say anything like it. Do not make a pass at a co-worker in a professional setting. At the end of a day when there is no more work if somebody asks another person out for drinks. That is fine.
People are not robots. You can't say no talking during work, or 'you can talk but no flirting or asking the other out'. Conversation is far more natural than that.
Quote:If they get a no and then become more and more forceful that is not ok. Asking someone out while working and so on. This may be a very case by case situation, depending on the person, but in many instances the male co-worker not leaving afemale worker alone can be common. The reverse is true too but not heard as often (in my limited exposure).
I agree. That's a situation to talk to management about.
Quote:There is nothing wrong with having relationships, romantic or otherwise, with co-workers. However, one has to respect boundaries and be a decent person.
True, couldn't agree more.
Quote:If you would be married to a co-worker it is not ok to just go make out in the closet either. There are different expectations.
Quote:I did not say that the asking out was harassment in and of itself. Merely that what one person considers "harmless flirting" is not harmless flirting to another person. This happens even outside of work.
Agreed. I think it often needs dealt with on a case by case basis because it can be so specific to the people involved.
Quote:And harassment does not really even require a relationship to occur, outside of work that is.
Quote:Make a culture and situation open to everybody reporting problems that they have. If people are afraid they will not report anything and it goes under the rug.
Absolutely but at the same time people should understand how the real world works and in many cases college today is not preparing people for that with the likes of micro-aggressions and safe spaces.
Quote:That is the easiest solution. One can argue it swings too far the other way at times, but however many decades most of those doing the abusing got away with pretty much everything. Bringing things to light and making sure everybody knows where to go wit hthese problems. And a system in place to address these in a reasonable way.
Well its interesting to note that in the Weinstein case that multiple women (many of whom are rich, successful and millionaires) are only reporting this now, 10, 20 or even 30 years after the fact. Those women should have felt safe to report him but didn't (perhaps Hollywood peer pressure or concern over their careers and so forth).
At the same time we now have the a lot of ludicrous claims - I saw one where Adam Sandler touched a woman's knee while on a tv show and she recently played the victim card on that which seemed a bit silly.
Quote:That is a first step that needs to be done and to varying degrees is. At least in most corporate culture. Some do not like it, but it is better than the reverse in most cases.
Quote:One incident could still be harassment. It just may not be that actionable unless it was pretty severe.
True but if its purely verbal harassment I think its more worthy of a warning first time around.
Quote:Maybe, I am not sure one needs that much for a second offense. One could include multiple offenses reported, witness, other evidence and so on.
I'm thinking more in terms of verbal abuse rather than anything physical. With the latter I could see an automatic suspension and or dismissal (if proven)...possibly even criminal charges depending on the severity of it.
Quote:I could easily imagine scenarios where harassment occurs and it never makes it into step 2 based on your grounds. Repeated complaints alone should be grounds for action.
Quote:A suspension may also be too severe depending on the nature of the event. Things should be as proportional as possible. It may be something as simple as separating two people at first (if just minor things that the HR group things are being taken wrong). If complaints would come up with the same person in a different group than more harsh actions would be considered.
Quote:A warning is important to start with, there are just probably other sorts of evidence that comes to the same end without needing to be CSI level.
Quote:It also would need to be clear that these rules apply to everybody. As one of the things that has made harassment tricky is that people are afraid of people in power. They still will be but with a change of culture and some actions the workplace can be better.
I saw a case a few weeks ago where a man on holiday (in Dubai I think) was jailed for 3 months because he accidentally touched another man's hip (in the bar) as he was trying to stop himself spilling a drink.
Quote:Or really any location. Not every situation is as simple as work.
Quote:*If its 'he said men are better cooks than women' then frankly I would give the warning to Person A instead.
She would have been (at worst) laughed at or at best (told to get over it) based on my experiences.
You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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