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Post By
zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 8,489
In Reply To
Upper_Krust

Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015
Posts: 124
Subj: Re: Upper Krust, a few words...
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 at 11:16:17 pm EST (Viewed 65 times)
Reply Subj: Norvell, a few words...
Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 at 08:43:35 pm EST (Viewed 97 times)



    Quote:
    I think we have pretty much finished the conversation on the Thor boards but decided to post here just to wrap up any loose ends or questions either of us have. If you want to continue any from the second thread there just fold them in here (it will probably get locked soon as well).


Here are some loose ends I'd like to address. I am quoting statements from you here, Upper Krust.


    Quote:
    What rights have white citizens in the west got that non-white citizens don't?


In the United States, the right to vote. Now non-white citizens ostensibly have the right to vote but the Republican Party here has done everything in their power to restrict that right for non-white citizens.


https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/Democracy/VRE/Summary_1.png

And clearly minorities are far more mistreated by law enforcement than whites in the U.S. In recent years, there's been a rash of cases in which police officers shot or otherwise killed unarmed blacks, far more per capita than the shooting of unarmed white men. Here is a list of just some of these deaths from 2015 alone:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/nicholasquah/heres-a-timeline-of-unarmed-black-men-killed-by-police-over

In all but 3 of these 16 cases, the officers got off scot free. Compare that to what white racists can get away with - Cliven Bundy, who stated blacks would be better off as slaves, grazes his cattle illegally on Federal land and gets away with it because he goes around with an armed militia. And can you imagine what would have happened if two dozen armed black men took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge like Cliven Bundy's son Ammon and his group of militants did? They certainly wouldn't have been acquitted like Ammon was.

There’s also an extreme imbalance in the incarceration rate in the United States between blacks and whites due to racial profiling:
 
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

Blacks and Hispanics are three times more likely to be searched during a traffic stop than whites. Blacks routinely get 10% longer prison sentences than whites for the same crimes. African Americans comprise 14 percent of regular drug users but are 37 percent of those arrested for drug offenses.


    Quote:
    My knowledge of individual US Policies is hardly extensive but if Trump is so far-right (as you seem to think) why was he the first Republican candidate to champion gay rights and wave the LGBT flag at the convention when he addressed the issue?


To court a voter base that he then completely abandoned after the election when he banned transgender troops from serving in the military and endorsed a huge homophobe in Roy Moore.


    Quote:
    There is no overt racism. That's why he had the largest Black and Hispanic support of any Republican in decades (if ever).


I'll tackle your second statement first. It's a lie. In 2016, 8% of blacks gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 11% of blacks gave Bush their vote. In 2016, 29% of Hispanics gave Trump their vote. In 2004, 44% of Hispanics gave Bush their vote. The statistics are here:

https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2004/

https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/groups-voted-2016/

As for "no overt racism," on 6/16/2015, Trump erroneously characterized Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists when immigrants, legal and illegal, commit crimes less frequently than U.S. citizens (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/). Trump said illegal immigration is "absolutely out of control" and there is a flood of illegal immigrants from Mexico when the U.S. actually lost a net 140,000 Mexican immigrants between 2009-2014 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/11737589/Why-Donald-Trump-is-wrong-about-Mexican-immigrants.html, http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/). On 12/7/2015, Trump said he wants to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. Banning people based on their religion is outright discrimination. On MSNBC, Trump would not disavow Japanese internment camps.

On 6/3/2016, Trump said American-born judge Gonzalo Curiel could not be unbiased toward Trump because of Curiel’s Mexican heritage and Trump’s stance against Mexican immigration to which even Trump supporter and House Speaker Paul Ryan said was "the textbook definition of a racist comment."


Trump and his father’s company have a long history of racial discrimination in renting out their properties (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html). When Clinton brought this up in their 9/26/2016 debate, Trump did not deny it. His defense was that “many other companies throughout the country” were sued for the same thing, but he was able to settle “with no admission of guilt.”


In 1989, Trump took out full-page ads in all 4 major NYC newspapers calling for the execution of 1 Hispanic and 4 black youths known as the Central Park Five, who were accused of raping a jogger. Even after DNA evidence exonerated them after years of false imprisonment, Trump still claims they are guilty even though another man has confessed to it and DNA evidence confirmed it. Trump reiterated this claim on 10/7/2016.


    Quote:
    He has all the trappings of a loony Christian Fundamentalist. However, I don't see much (if any) of his beliefs becoming law.


If Trump backs enough lunatics like Roy Moore then what they believe would become law. That’s the whole point of not backing ANY in the first place! I mean, Trump has freakin’ endorsed Roy Moore who has sexually assaulted minors! If Trump endorsed Hitler even though Nazi beliefs wouldn't become law, is that okay? It would be according to your logic here.


    Quote:
    So potentially 60 million ugly human beings in America today according to you.


Sure, out of a population of 325 million, 18% ugly ain't that bad. Anyway, 60 million Americans who would vote for the most crass, indecent, lying, temperamentally unstable, woefully uniformed, inexperienced, and self-interested President of all time who also happens to be a racist and misogynist and callous con man, yes, they are certainly abetting ugliness.


    Quote:
    I think if you actually listened to what Trump is saying rather than just reading and watching hit pieces on him you would see he is trying to heal an America that has been growing more and more divided on racial and political grounds (because of identity politics, political agitators and certain groups) for the past few years...long before he decided to run for office I should add.


This one is really funny! The racist birther is trying to heal America! Outside of the Civil War era, the United States has never been more divided than now. Trump almost entirely plays to his base, which is making everyone more divided, not less. There's not one thing Trump has done to unite people here.


    Quote:
    The world isn't fair because LIFE ISN'T FAIR, its nothing to do with any imaginary Patriarchy. That's just an excuse for people playacting victims to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.


The Patriarchy is imaginary? I suppose it's just a coincidence that the United States has never had a female President or Vice President in its 240-year history? That more than 80% of Congress are men? That 88% of our 50 states have men as governors? That the past two months revealed a score of powerful men in industry and government who have had multiple allegations of sexual harassment or misconduct stemming back decades? That their power deterred their victims from speaking up until now? Nah, that's all imaginary.


    Quote:
    If your famous they let you grab them by the *****...I mean its crass and stupid, but for a private conversation amongst guys (ie. Locker Room talk) THAT's the worst thing they could pin on him"!


No, his brag is not the worst, though until then, that would have been sufficient to sink any U.S. presidential candidate. Sixteen different women alleged sexual harassment against them by Trump. Not one, not two, SIXTEEN. I'm sure you're going to dismiss it, but then you'd have to do the same for Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Roger Ailes, Kevin Spacey, Charlie Rose, and Mark Halperin too, right? You'll probably excuse Roy Moore's pedophilia too. We have recordings of Trump boasting about bursting into Miss America pageant dressing rooms to look at the women undressed and the women attesting to that. Is that inappropriate enough for you? We have video footage of Trump looking at a passing 10-year old and saying that he would be dating her in 10 years. Is that inappropriate? Do those things make you think he's lying about his groping and that all these sexual harassment allegations against him aren’t true? You think all of these women who have given detailed accounts are lying about Trump? Isn't it a bit odd though that you do accept the allegations against Bill Clinton but not Trump?


    Quote:
    By 'corruption' you mean made up nonsense with no evidence.


No evidence, huh? Read this article about how Trump saw "drain the swamp" as merely a marketing gimmick that he had no plans to enact, and now many of his cabinet, who are worth a combined $4 billion, uses government money for lavish trips in which we the tax payers foot the bill.

http://www.newsweek.com/2017/11/10/trump-administration-most-corrupt-history-698935.html

Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price had to resign after reporters revealed that his trips cost over $1 million. Keep in mind this $1 million was spent in only 6 months time! Breaking all kinds of ethics rules, Trump's spokesperson Kellyanne Conway actually went on tv to promote Ivanka Trump merchandise! Trump fetes foreign leaders all the time at his clubs and resorts reaping hundreds of thousands of dollars for himself in the process.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/widespread-corruption-allegations-add-trump-worlds-troubles

From the above piece, "HHS Secretary Tom Price was under investigation, and the scandal led to his resignation. [Interior Secretary Ryan] Zinke is facing more than one investigation. VA Secretary David Shulkin is under investigation. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is under investigation. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley was investigated for violating the Hatch Act. EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt has been caught up in so many controversies, it’s been genuinely difficult to keep up with all of them. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has faced accusations of lying under oath about his interactions with Russian officials during the campaign. And that's just Trump's cabinet."


    Quote:
    I'm still waiting for you to tell me something he has done that isn't
    common sense?


Lying constantly? Threaten nuclear war with North Korea to the point even the Republican Congress is considering legislation to restrict Trump's ability to launch a nuclear strike on his own (because you know he can do it any time he wants to, right)? Hiring a coal lobbyist as deputy administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency?


    Quote:
    If I type in Obama lies or Clinton lies will anything show up? Would I be 'quite staggered' at THEIR dishonesty?


You'd be staggered to find that Trump blatantly lies about 8 times as often of either Clinton or Obama.


    Quote:
    So he's smart at exploiting the system. Sounds like the sort of person I'd want to get rid of those type of loopholes - something Trump has said he wants to do.


Far from getting rid of loopholes, he's trying to make a lot more to enrich himself and other millionaires/billionaires.


    Quote:
    Of course they support him, he has the best interests of Americans at
    heart.


Ha ha ha! Has he conned you. Trump has the best interests of only one person at heart: himself. Under Trump, the government has moved to help the wealthy over the poor at every turn. Trump just tweeted that Wall Street, which was responsible for the Great Recession and whose markets are near all-time highs, has been devastated and needs government help! What a joke.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/business/financial-regulation-rollback-trump.html

Trump has tried to install as new head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau someone who is on record opposing the Bureau’s very existence. Of course Trump did the same thing for the Environmental Protection Agency. So, no, he doesn’t have Americans’ best interests at heart.




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