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Post By
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,561
In Reply To
MysteryMan

Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,905
Subj: Re: The difference between right and wrong, and drawing the line.
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 at 08:47:28 am EST (Viewed 183 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The difference between right and wrong, and drawing the line.
Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 at 10:32:23 pm EST (Viewed 190 times)



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          They were specifically non religious...they were in power.
          The 3 greatest mass murdering cultures in the history of the word were
          #1 Communism
          #2 Communism
          #3 Fascism

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          No.

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            Those were arguably* the greatest mass murdering regimes, but you can't blame the entire cultures for their leaders, especially given the way those leaders came into and held on to power.

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              I say arguably because it's impossible to even guess how many people were murdered in the name of Christianity over the centuries. Between the crusades, the inquisitions, witch hunts, murders for heresy, or being in the wrong subset of Christianity (Protestant v Catholic for example).

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                All specifically targeted religions.

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                When it suited them to do so. More so under communism than fascism. But even Stalin reinstated the Russian Orthodox Church in 1941. Why did he do that? Because he knew that religion was still a major factor in Russia despite the persecutions and he needed something to galvanise the people to patriotic fervour in preparation for war.

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                  And that's the point I'm making here. Stalin may have been an atheist. Many of those in power around him may have been atheists - I dare say some were not. Closet Christians, as it were - but most of the population whether they dared show it or not, clung to some form of religious worship.

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                    And it's a similar story with Hitler.

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                      But in any case, the associations don't establish causation. Hitler and Stalin didn't murder millions because they were atheists. They murdered them because they were psychopaths.

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        This last point is critical I think. And many refuse to acknowledge it. It is like the gag argument "You know who believed in arithmetic...Hitler".



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    No more so than Christian leaders (and we always bring up the Christians because its not fair to Muslims right?) did it because THEY wee psychopaths and not because religion? Making excuses (in this case being a psycho) for one while not the other is not critical thinking.


Who cares about Christians or Muslims? I know this spun off into a religious direction with morality but the point I was stating holds true regardless.

It is false equivalency. Assuming that because one person was one thing that by causation the things the person did were derived from that character. This holds for science denial, immigration debates or whatever else thing you want to talk about. We tend to assume cause and effect.

The Christian vs Muslim thing is bunk. Both sides should be held to the same standards. However, pending the argument you are having. If we are discussing the US who has more pull. Christians or Muslims? Surely not the later. Other parts of the world are the reverse, but in the US that is not the case. And in a historical context all religions are a mixed bag.

One can make the case that they were psychopaths. The worst of them anyway over the years for whatever reason. They happily used religion (pick which one) as a justification for their actions. In the case of Hitler or Stalin, they also used appeal to religion to accomplis those ends. But not in isolation. A mixture of nationalism, religious heritage and other ends.

Religion, one can easily make the case, results in as much or more cultural harm as anything else. Maybe more, it is hard to count for it. It is often used as justification for whatever ill there is.

Is something that is so manipulatable that ok. Does it balance any sort of cost benefit analysis? For a given person it may be wonderful and make them a better person. On the whole, it is more used as a sword to divide people and resort to base tribalism than anything else.

One is wise to be highly skeptical of anything making a religious appeal. As it usually means wanting to make other people believe as I do with no other real rational grounds other than my view of what certain ancient teachings say. And these are often the people (regardless of religion) who are more than happy to disgard all aspects of modern science as they become inconvenient.

So, what I was addressing initially is very important. As it is very poor logic. People do not care and never will but it is not way for society to progress. And basically resorts into saying whatever the reality is was too complicated. Let me just make this hasty comparison and assume all conclusions stem from one fact.

Not all Christians are bad people because they are Christian either, nor Muslims nor whatever else. Some are just bad people. However, I would contend that religion has made it easier for people to do things and get away with it from the angle of "divine right" and therefore beyond question. Which is dangerous. And we are seeing, in the US and in Europe, a reversion to thought and reversion to many of the worst tendencies in nationalism, religion and ideology. Few seem to care much. So long as they get their way.





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