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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 14,650
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Ancient One

Member Since: Mon Nov 08, 2010
Posts: 5,305
Subj: Re: The difference between right and wrong, and drawing the line.
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 at 04:28:39 pm EST (Viewed 43 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The difference between right and wrong, and drawing the line.
Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 at 04:04:42 pm EST (Viewed 40 times)


      Really, the only one I would quibble with would the role of religion as a factor in crime. Religion is a factor, perhaps a main one. But I am not sure I would agree it is the causative factor. At least not in and of itself.


        I am not saying you are wrong or anything on that comparison, it just seems incomplete to me.

    Okay. Cool. I'm going to have to give that more thought. And more research. Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.


      Perhaps there is more and better data than I know about but it can be hard to compare countries in such ways.

    It's an absolute minefield.

    Statistics are easy to come by for Europe, the US and Canada, but there are practically no official statistics available for the Muslim countries. Their governments simply don't allow the collection of that kind of data in most countries. We have to rely on often unreliable official figures, and surveys done in secret, which is far from ideal.

Really, even Western countries under report most things. Not through any evil intention but just because they can only report what they are told was an incident.

    Even European figures can be difficult to navigate. For example Sweden has one of the lowest incidences of rape per capita, but on paper it looks very high. The two reasons for this are: The Swedish authorities are very proactive in dealing with rape cases. Victims are encouraged to come forward and are treated with respect. This means that Sweden has a higher number of victims who actually report the crimes.

Indeed, and I think this is often abused by some for anti-immigration policies or whatever instance. It is hard to look at large scale data in a reasonable way. Not acting like I have the magic answer or anything.

Just saying I think caution is justified.

    Plus, if a woman comes forward and says she's been a victim of domestic violence for a year, and that her husband raped her once a week, the police treat every attack as a separate incident, so just from one victim you get 52 reports filed.

Indeed, and I am not really disagreeing that the data is complicated. Merely that the full picture is sometimes hard if not impossible to reach.

Just as somebody skeptical of things. In your example, religion of places are compared and crime rates. That is fine, it is a comparison. Would there be other explanations or co-explanations? Sometimes it is possible to tease things apart. Sometimes not.

And that can go back to data quality, lack of data and other factors. It does not mean you are wrong, just means it is hard to figure out a 1:1 relationship.

I know you know all of this already.

    Conversely South Africa has a lower number on paper, but far fewer victims report the crime. Despite the official figures, in a recent (2013) survey no less than one in four men admitted to rape, many admitting to raping more than one woman. Which is absolutely shocking.


    So if you compare the two countries just by the official figures, without having all the evidence to hand, you're going to be seriously misled.

Totally agree. And I think it is a problem in whatever debate one wants to have. Particularly on large scale policy. Without context, acknowledging problems and bias (I mean method based) it can be hard. And humans are not good at caution.

In fact we tend to value the confident fool more than the contemplative unsure type.

    as I say, a minefield.


      I totally agree that it has a role. I just think it is tricky to figure out if it is THE cause. It is an important one. If I read you wrong than I apologize.

    No apology necessary. Even if you did read me wrong (You didn't) constructive criticism is only ever a good thing.

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