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Subj: Re: The horrors of Donal Trump
Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 at 10:24:17 pm EST (Viewed 300 times)
Reply Subj: Re: The horrors of Donal Trump
Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 at 07:59:48 pm EST (Viewed 329 times)
Quote:Trump ignored Russian interference in the 2016 election (something attested to by all 17 intelligence agencies) while praising Putin (a despot who has murdered political opponents), and Trump has done little to prevent Russian interference from happening again in the 2018 elections.
Quote:Trump was not president in 2016. He had no ability to stop a foreign government from doing anything. Obama however was aware since at least the start of his second term that the Chinese and Russians were stepping up efforts to hack U.S. government agencies. The Chinese had a major success with stealing State Department information. Even left-leaning papers such as The Washington Post and NY Times questioned why Obama was "dawdling" in the face of Russian espionage. That Russian espionage and interference wasn't prevented in 2016 is no fault of Trump.
I see your tactic throughout your post is to engage in whataboutism. To say someone else did something you think is as egregious as Trump and somehow that absolves Trump of his failures. It does not. My criticism here stands. Trump has refused to deal with Russian election meddling while in office and praises an evil man in Putin, going so far as to morally equivocate the U.S. with Russia. What a patriot that Trump is.
Quote:Trump tried to undermine the Russia investigation by the FBI and Robert Mueller despite publically asking Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's emails during the campaign, which Russia followed through on.
Quote:For the sarcastically challenged, Trump was making a joke. But your statement that Putin followed through after Trump's speech shows that you are misinformed. It would have been impossible to hack into the computer at that point. At the time of Trump's speech, Hillary's computer was already off-line and in the possession of the FBI.
Russia didn't literally hack Clinton's computer, but they did hack into the Democratic National Committee's computers. The distinction is irrelevant. Joke or no, it was entirely, entirely inappropriate to invite a foreign power to meddle in the election, and it's certainly not a joke anymore. Trump and his people are being investigated for collusion with the Russians.
Quote:Trump fired FBI Director James Comey and said in an interview that he had Comey's Russian investigation on his mind when doing so. Trump had also asked Comey to stop investigating Michael Flynn, which itself could be considered tampering with law enforcement. Trump also asked Director of National Intelligence, Daniel Coats, and Director of the National Security Agency, Adm. Michael S. Rogers, to publicly deny any evidence of Russian collusion, and both refused.
Quote:Comey did a bad job all around. I think everyone can agree with that. Clinton even blames him for her losing the election. He turned the investigation into a complete circus. He deserved to get fired. No horrors.
So you think Comey treated Clinton unfairly? I somehow doubt you do. Maybe Comey did deserve to get fired, but not for the reason Trump fired him, which might lead to a charge of Trump obstructing justice. Also Trump praised Comey for going after Clinton and continues to say law enforcement should go after Clinton even today so he certainly didn't fire Comey for that.
Quote:Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador Sergei Kislyak.
Quote:The information Trump shared with Kislyak was regarding ISIS, and with within his legal authority to do so. If there is one goal that the U.S. and Russia have in common it is the fight against islamic terrorists. Trump believes coordination on this would be beneficial to the U.S. Some reports are that ISIS has lost as high as 98% of their territory since Trump was elected. Where is the "horror"?
You're missing the forest for the trees. Trump did it inadvertently. There's proper protocol to clear divulging of such information. Trump just blurt it out because he didn't know any better.
Quote:Trump signed a tax bill that will increase inequality even more (and it was already a huge problem), add well over $1 trillion to the national debt, and will benefit himself financially.
Quote:Let's not forget the most important point. Money earned belongs to that person. Yes, we all need to help fund the government, but it is not the government's money, which it then decides how much to dole out to us.
Actually it's not important and a totally Irrelevant point, but I won't give you a lesson in social contract theory right now.
Quote:I disagree that inequality is a huge problem.
No big surprise there.
Quote:I would rather make $8 to my boss's $10, then have us each earn $5. The latter is equal, but the former provides me with a higher quality of living. The quality of living which separates much of today's inequality is the difference of being able to afford luxury items. I don't believe it's the government's role to have that detailed a role in our lives.
Your example could hardly be more of a joke. The difference isn't between $8 and $10. People can get paid $15 an hour today while the heads of their company make $4,000 an hour or far more. The average CEO of a large U.S. company makes 270 or 350 times the wage of the average worker:
The net worth of the 400 wealthiest Americans is more than the net worth of the bottom half of all Americans. The combined assets of over 150 million people is less than that of the wealthiest 400 people. The average net worth of the lower 50% of households in 2013 was $11,000. Think about that. Think about that when you dismiss today's inequality as "the difference of being able to afford luxury items." 1 in 8 Americans live in poverty. You're being willfully blind if you don't realize that tens of millions are struggling just to make ends meet. Your belief that this is "not a huge problem" is exactly what's wrong with the Republican Party.
Quote:You and I agree that the national debt is a problem. But I think the problem is on the spending side. I don't believe Americans are taxed too little, I believe the government spends too much. Please see some examples from a prior conversation.
Trump campaigned on people keeping their Social Security and Medicare benefits, he's proposed a $200 billion infrastructure bill, and he's pushing big increases in military spending when U.S. military spending is already bigger than the next 8 countries in the world put together. Tell me where are the cuts going to come from? Those are by far the biggest line items. Cutting anything else is peanuts.
Quote:The tax bill raises the standard deduction, and tax cuts provided to business have created jobs, raised wages, and allowed employers to pay out higher bonuses. This is not a horror.
62% of the bill's benefits go to the top 1%. That is a horror. When tax breaks for the middle class expire, 83% of the benefits will go to the top 1%. Why add what is actually going to be $1.5-2 trillion to the national debt on a bill that will help those who need it least? That is a horror. If you just gave $2 trillion to the poorest 40 million people, there would be no poverty in the United States. But yeah, let's give it to the people, who according to you, can buy more luxury items.
Quote:Trump chooses to engage with foreign leaders and diplomats on property he owns thus benefiting himself financially.
Quote:I'm not aware of the specifics here, but I do generally agree that avoiding even the appearance of impropriety is preferable. However, if no laws are being broken, this is hardly a "horror".
Wow, your standards are low. Anything that doesn't break the law can't be horrible.
Quote:Trump has eroded standards of propriety and decency expected from a national leader by behaving with a thin-skinned temperament, pettiness, demagoguery, and racism. He has no experience in government and often doesn't know what he's talking about so he bluffs. When he gets called on his bluff, he has to lie. When he is criticized for his lie, he goes on the attack, and he looks unseemly throughout this whole cycle that occurs over and over again.
Quote:Remove the racism, and erosion of standards, and I agree with much of this. Trump was not a politician when he ran for office. He is very unfamiliar with how much of the government operates. As was in the news recently, Democrats have said he did not know the difference between funding and appropriation of the wall. This however, is not a horror. These are terms that most private citizens would need explained to them. No matter who is in office, there is a very steep learning curve.
That the President of the United States needs these things explained to him is a horror. No one in recent history has entered office as unprepared as Trump. Also Trump is plainly racist. But I suppose you believe him when he says he's the least racist person ever.
Quote:Having no experience in government is a positive factor in many people's opinion.
That's a nice attempt at spin.
Quote:Having someone who thinks like a business man rather than someone only worried about currying favor with lobbying groups was one of the factors that made him attractive to voters.
Then it must be doubly unfortunate that Trump curries favor with lobbying groups.
Quote:So if he's unclear on some of the congressional specific lingo, it's anticipated. You may disagree, but there's no horror.
The complaint isn't about his not understanding some lingo. It's that he behaves horribly and indecently!
Quote:And he is at times very thin skinned. It's not a becoming character trait, but I wouldn't label it a "horror".
It's not a horror if he were some random guy on the street, but it's a horror in the context of him being the President of the United States. Trump is a joke to the rest of the world with people regularly questioning his sanity. That is a horror. I understand that given your biases, nothing he could do could be a horror to you.
Quote:Trump lies incessantly while simultaneously trying to discredit the press and calling the free press the enemy. Examples of fragrant lies include Trump making false claims that Mexico will pay for his wall, that no one on his campaign staff had contact with the Russians, that 3-5 millions illegals voting in the 2016 election, that the Obama administration wiretapped him, that he had bigger inauguration crowds than Obama, that it wasn't him on the Access Hollywood tape AFTER Trump already apologized for it, that an aircraft carrier was heading to Korea when it was actually going the opposite direction; Trump has told hundreds of outright lies, again demeaning his office: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html
Quote:I think we're not going to agree about much of what the NY Times calls lies. This gets into too much detail looking at each one. If you are interested, you can see many of my comments in the thread below, but I don't have the time to go through all these again. The post also lists 15 lies by Obama. Politicians lie, I wish they didn't, but it's what they do. You seem to be holdings Trump to a different standard than his predecessor.
Trump lies to a different standard than ANY predecessor. He lies at least five times as much as anyone who's held the office in modern times. But more whataboutism from you.
Quote:Despite campaigning on hiring "the best people," Trump poorly chose advisors/cabinet members resulting in poor performance, controversy, resignations, and firings - here is a ridiculously long list of these people: Michael Flynn, Sean Spicer, Anthony Scaramucci, Steve Bannon, Tom Price, Steve Mnuchin, Jared Kushner, Reince Priebus, Omarosa Manigault, Ryan Zinke, David Shulkin, Scott Pruitt, Sebastian Gorka, Mike Dubke, Jeff Sessions, Rick Perry, David Friedman.
Quote:I agree some of these names didn't work out, but I disagree on others. You may not like Rick Perry's politics, you may not like Steve Mnuchin's ideas, you may not like Sebastian Gorka...but that doesn't quality as a "horror". I'm sure many republicans disliked members of Obama's administration such as Holder, Napolitano, Rice, Van Jones. Should that start a list of "The horrors of Barack Obama"? I say, no.
The Obama people you named don't remotely compare to the list I gave. Just to touch on the ones you named: Rick Perry didn't realize his own Department of Energy oversaw the U.S. nuclear arsenal. That's just embarrassing. Steve Mnuchin used government aircraft to fly to Kentucky to view the eclipse to the tune of 26,900 tax payer dollars. This is one of seven trips Mnuchin took instead of flying commercially and thus cost the government $811,800. Mnuchin even requested a military jet to fly him on his honeymoon. Mnuchin is a horror. Gorka is a know-nothing Muslim basher affiliated with fascist Hungarian extremist groups.
Quote:Trump has failed to provide much help to U.S. territory Puerto Rico after it was devastated by a hurricane; months later, Puerto Rico is still a mess.
Quote:This is blatantly not true. You are misinformed. Trump has approved federal funding for 90% of the costs to rebuild Puerto Rico. This includes the power grid, hospitals, bridges and roads. Normally the federal government funds roughly 75% of these building efforts.
One third of Puerto Rico is still without power today. That is to say over one million people have no electricity 4 months after the hurricane. Trump is the President. Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory. What is Trump doing about it? Nothing. He probably would be if Puerto Ricans were mostly white people speaking English.
Quote:Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and thus gave up a crucial bargaining chip in Middle East peace negotiations for absolutely nothing except riling up Palestinians who will trust the U.S. even less now. 128 countries including most of the United States' closest allies repudiated Trump for this move.
Quote:Whether or not you consider this a horror likely comes down to your opinion on Israel. Jerusalem is, by all standards used to recognize a nations's capital, Israel's capital. Its Prime Minister sits there, its parliament sits there, its supreme court sits there. Please let's not split this off into an Israel/Palestine conversation. I have no desire for that on this board. Bottom line, Trump recognized a capital based on how all other capitals are based.
You didn't answer a single point I made with that explanation that completely ignores the significance of Jerusalem.
Quote:In 2008 Obama said "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided". Was this a horror? Will you be following up this post with "the horrors of Barack Obama"?
More whataboutism. You conveniently omit the part in which Obama misspoke and backtracked right away.
Quote:The U.N. has included Saudi Arabia on the Women's Rights Council, and China on the Human Rights Council, as well as other insane appointments. It regularly does nothing in the face of true human abuses. It wouldn't even criticize Zimbabwe for it's terrible massacres and human rights abuses. If you think I am going to take their opinion to mean anything, you are incorrect.
More whataboutism. You also use the absurd logic that because the U.N. did something wrong, it is therefore not possible for them to do something right.
Quote:Trump has threatened to leave the Iran deal, which by all indications is working, but leaving the deal has no upside because Europe will not reinstitute sanctions since it wasn't Iran who broke the deal, and no longer having to honor the deal, Iran will be able to pursue nuclear weapons immediately.
Quote:Even during Obama's presidency, Iran violated the nuclear deal multiple times. You are incorrect to state they have not. Even the Huffington Post in 2016 listed out ways Iran has breached the deal. You are misinformed on this issue.
I am not. I stated that the deal is working and it is. Iran is not currently in the process of building a nuclear weapon. I did not state anything about Iran not violating anything. Iran's minor violations were corrected: https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/trump-irans-multiple-violations/
Quote:Trump made the campaign promise, "You're going to end up with great healthcare for a fraction of the price, and that's going to take place immediately after we go in. Okay? Immediately. Fast. Quick." and Trump failed to get that done despite having Republican control of both houses of Congress, nevermind that the Republican bill was not going to achieve that promise anyway and was hated by the public. The CBO analysis of the bill showed that 23 million people would lose their health insurance under it and that it would raise premiums by 20% by 2019.
Quote:I'm honestly not sure what Trump wants in a new health insurance model, so I cannot say much about that. We will have to wait until a new deal is made.
We know what Trump was willing to pass and it was a horror that would have caused the loss of health insurance to over 20 million people.
Quote:However...if not following through on heathcare promises qualifies as a horror...Obama's "If you like your health plan, you can keep it" was Politifact's lie of the year. He also promised costs would go down, but costs rose after the bill. Was Obama a "horror", or are you holding different presidents to different standards?
Quote:Trump ended the Affordable Care Act's mandate which will result in turmoil in health insurance markets starting in 2019 and result in the higher rates and millions losing their health coverage.
Quote:Neither of us can predict the future regarding your claim of turmoil in 2019. I suspect things will be okay one way or another. This one is definitely disqualified as a "horror". You can't include events that haven't happened yet, and may not happen.
I work in the health insurance industry and I talk to strategic planning experts, all of whom hate hate hate the uncertainty Trump has created in the industry. The whole point of insurance is to pool money so that outlier situations (extreme illness or injury) are affordable. Removing the mandate is removing the ability to pool the money. You are left with insurance companies having to pay with much smaller pools. That means much higher premiums. It's as simple as that.
Quote:With help from the Republican Senate, Trump stole a Supreme Court nomination from the Democrats causing an even more dramatic increase in partisanship.
Quote:Supreme Court nominations are controlled by the senate. This was not a decision made by Trump, and was done before he was in office. Disqualified as a "horror of Donald Trump".
The Republican Senate stole the Supreme Court nomination, but Trump nevertheless made the appointment. If he wanted to heal the country, he would have appointed a moderate.
Quote:Trump has nominated numerous judges with literally no experience to the courts.
Quote:It isn't a requirement. And this isn't at all the first time it's been done. Even as high as the Supreme Court, there have been 40 U.S. Supreme Court judges without prior judicial experience. My guess is that you are more upset at the political leanings of these new judges rather than their experience.
The Supreme Court is different from all other courts so using them as an example makes no sense.
Quote:Trump broke federal guidelines and traditions on pardoning and pardoned Joe Arpaio for his racial profiling of suspects, making the country even more divisive.
Quote:This idea of "making the country divisive" always amazes me. If a democrat president does something that republicans don't like, the message is "Elections have consequences", but when republicans do something democrats don't like, they are being "divisive". It's a nonsense partisan argument.
Way to rationalize and avoid the specifics that make this a horror.
Quote:Trump morally equivocated White Supremacists in Charlottesville and their protesters after a White Supremacist killed a protester there.
Quote:Ah, yes.....you and I had lots to say about this back in August. See below for a refresher. We are simply not going to agree on this one. I suggest we don't clog up the board by rehashing this again.
Yeah, thanks for posting that and reminding me that I won that debate.
Quote:Trump promoted faked anti-Muslim videos from far right racist ultranationalist hate group Britain First.
Quote:Correct me if I am wrong...the three videos were absolutely real, but one of them had a fake caption. The video of a muslim man destroying a statue of the virgin Mary was real. The video of a group of muslims pushing a man off the top of the roof to his death was real. The video of a Dutch boy on crutches getting beat by a muslim was real. The fake part was that the muslim beating the boy on crutches was called a "migrant" in the original tweet, but he had in fact been born in the Netherlands.
The Dutch boy was neither Muslim nor a migrant. The Muslims killing a person was during rioting in Egypt and two of the men were sentenced to death for the act, so it was hardly Islam promoting what's depicted. The Virgin Mary statue video is unverified but hardly meaningful. But again, you're missing the forest for the trees! Trump propped up a hate group! For an American president to do that is horrible.
Quote:Trump supported homophobic and racist extremist GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore who had allegations of sexual assault and relationships with underage girls.
Quote:I'm not going to defend Roy Moore, but if a politician defending questionable people in their own party is a "horror", then the whole lot of them are guilty. Bill Clinton has been accused of rape and sexual assault. Hillary defended him for decades. She got a child rapist off charges who she believed to have been guilty. Recent revelations are that she protected an adviser who committed sexual harrasment by moving him elsewhere rather than firing him. I'm doubting that had Hillary won, you would be posting today about "the horrors of Hillary Clinton".
Ah, more whataboutism. The Clintons have done horrible things. No doubt about it. Most of it still less horrible than Trump, but you can't bring yourself to say Trump's ever been horrible. Funny that.
Quote:Trump's juvenile trading of insults with Kim Jong Un degrades the dignity of his office.
Quote:I wish he would tweet less. I wish he had someone editing the tweets. But that's not likely to happen. The claims of "degrading the dignity of his office" are partisan attacks. Obama was attacked for the same thing when he did a video of himself doing goofy smiles with a selfie-stick. He was also attacked for doing comedy shows like "Between Two Ferns". It all depends on your point of view. I have no interest in any of it, it doesn't affect my life in the slightest. I'm more concerned about policy.
The big difference is that attacks on Obama for degrading the office were partisan attacks. Donald Trump really is degrading the office. You even imply that you're aware of it, you just can't bring yourself to actually criticize Trump because of your own admitted partisanship.
Quote:Trump nominated someone who is not a scientist to be chief scientist of the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Quote:The role was not "chief scientist". The role was undersecretary of the Department of Agriculture. Please correct me if I am wrong. We might be referring to different appointments. The title matters because it relays information about his responsibilities. Either way, someone can be deemed qualified to run a department without having prior expertise in the details of that department. Obama nominated Leon Panetta to head the CIA even though Panetta had absolutely zero espionage experience. I've searched this board for the words "horrors" and "Obama", but I find no posts from you listing this a horror. I am beginning to think something qualifies as a "horror" to you only if it's done by a politician for which you have not voted.
More whataboutism. The aim of this tactic is to change the subject to what someone else did or did not do so that we don't have to talk about what Trump did. The subject is Trump. If you use whataboutism, all you're admitting to is that you can't actually defend Trump.
Quote:Trump set a precedent to undermine all of your predecessor's achievements; this could mean Republican and Democratic administrations might spend most of their time repealing what went before instead of traditionally respecting the will of the voters on keeping most of the legislation passed by those whom the voters elected.
Quote:Do you really believe this is a precedent set by Donald Trump? You should read more history. The very first party change of the U.S. presidency was from the Federalists under Adams to the Republicans under Jefferson (not the same republican party existing today). Jefferson was very quick to reverse some of what Adams instituted. There is no tradition of upholding everything which came from the prior administration.
I'm not talking about upholding everything, but no administration tries to overturn everything either and that's what Trump has been doing because he too almost can't pass anything legislatively despite his party holding both houses of Congress.
Quote:In truth Trump would have a much harder time undoing Obama's policies if Obama had tried harder to pass legislation through congress. Instead, he famously claimed to be able to use his phone and his pen, and passed some higher level items as executive orders rather than as laws. This is absolutely the case had he worked with the senate to pass a treaty with Iran rather than a "deal" which is not binding.
I see you're criticizing Obama on this but not on Trump doing the same thing. Your whataboutism only works in one direction.
Quote:Trump has played golf almost one third of the time he's been in office despite saying during the campaign that he wouldn't play golf at all while in office. This is two and a half times as much golf Obama played and for which Trump criticized Obama.
Quote:This golf thing was boring when the republicans used it against Obama. It's equally boring now. No horrors to be seen.
What is horrible is not the golf playing. It's the blatant hypocrisy. It was Trump doing the "boring" criticism against Obama, and now he's doing the very thing he criticized but much, much more of it than the person he criticized.
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