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Post By
bd2999

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 15,378
In Reply To
MysteryMan

Member Since: Fri Apr 28, 2017
Posts: 1,705
Subj: Re: Not sure I dissagree but there is one thing people always forget...
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 at 03:39:24 pm EST (Viewed 275 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Not sure I dissagree but there is one thing people always forget...
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 at 01:10:18 pm EST (Viewed 297 times)



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      But one could take that a bit further. Why is the US this way in the first place? We have about 4% of the world's population but just shy of half of the world's privately owned guns.



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    It's in our psychology and part of the very formation of our countries identity. There is historical evidence when govt. takes weapons out of the publics hands that said governments often become much worse. Not saying letting kids have access to machine guns is ok by any means though.


I will plead ignorance of the data on that account, but if that is the case than why is Europe not much worse in general? Or Australia? They have done that and baring other factors are pretty nice places to live overall compared to countries that just have very bad governments.

I agree that mentality has something to do with it, but is it history or just culture? It becomes hard to tell them apart, but some of the modern views of guns are very recent. The individual right to bare arms (personal gun ownership) was not really supported totally until the Heller decision. Other judges were fine with them, but most of them did not read that specifically into the second amendment until much later.

Now, this is not to say that guns were not important to the initial document etc., but we often ignore context. And much of the development of gun culture has as much to do with a history we would like to have happen compared to the actual one. At least it seems that way. Be it economics or what have you. Alternate realities abound.

I just am skeptical about the claim that owning a gun would do too much to stop a corrupt government. It seems more like a Red Dawn sort of fantasy than reality. And I would assume (not saying you are saying this) that it also starts to go down the path of why not other weapons then. The Second Amendment says arms, not guns. Does that mean that some guy with enough money could have whatever he wanted?


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      That in and of itself makes it easier for those illegal gun deals to happen. Access is pretty much prime in the US compared to anywhere else.



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    Agreed



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      For that matter, why are guns so romanticized by such a vocal group? If somebody wants a gun to protect themselves than fine, but why do we find it acceptable in public discourse that the Second Amendment is a blanket Amendment to support insurrection to overthrow the government. Particularly when that was never the reality or the intention.



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    It was partly was it not? If British rule had removed all guns/weapons from the colonies. There never would have been a revolution...or a successful one.


True, but one also has to flip that separating from a foreign government does not always require violent acts either. Things would have been very different but it is not to imply that all revolutions are good or that they all require firearms either. A fair number of such things have those with guns crushing others and doing pretty bad things too. At least if we want to look at the world.

Britain would also not have been in their best interest to do that. As these were their citizens facing real (or hyped) threats from natives, other countries with populations around, hunting and so on and so forth.

Unless we want to argue that the current US is as wild and untamed as that initial instance than I am a bit skeptical.

Also, France is also a major reason that the US won that war in the end. The US had to do its part too, but even with guns and a major ego the young US got its butt kicked many times in that war and 1812. Britain burned the White House to the ground.


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      I am pretty convinced that nothing can be done at this point at any rate that would get any realistic traction in the US. Apparently we accept that kids dying is just normal. And who cares about adults?



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    I agree sadly...as it would be better if we could do some things.



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      Preventing some individuals with problems from owning guns may be one area (this path was started to go down by Obama but Trump undid the executive action), bump stock ban did not go anywhere, folks on the no fly list cannot fly and do other things but can access a gun, the background check system we have needs to be overhauled to be more comprehensive and not let as many through the cracks.



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    To me this is a no brainer and is sickening and horrific that such simple actions have not already been in place for years.



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      Nothing, given how many guns are already present, will stop all gun crime, but much much more can be done to reduce the numbers.



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    Agree...there are so many ways gun crimes could be lowered that just are not done but should be.


Yeah, I am not under the illusion that based on who we are that gun violence will ever hit zero. That said, I would hope we could do better than we are. Particular with school shootings.

Ironically, general violent crime numbers have gone down overall. But seems like there are still way too many things happening. Guns just make them easier to do on a larger scale.


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      I am not sure I buy into the tool argument completely. A gun is a tool, like a knife. But it is easier to do more harm with a gun than a knife. Easier to kill oneself or accidentally kill somebody. A knife has numerous intended uses other than stabbing somebody but guns are primarily there (based on proponents claims) to protect individuals, stop bad guys or similar things. Target shooting aside.



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    I would consider it a tool for hunting and maybe a psychological tool, but I get your point. It's a much more limited tool and should be definitely be classified as more dangerous than a knife.


I know, I am not against people owning guns or whatever. I just think it is a burden due to its nature. It is a nasty thing that can take a life easily.

I am not big on hunting, but if people are into it I am fine. My preference is that I do not understand why people want to bother with it. But that is my bias. I do not do it and others can do what they want within legal limits.


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      Even intimidation with a gun is the threat of violence. We should treat guns differently and do much more to push responsible gun ownership. We do not know what really does that either. And that is pathetic at this point.



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    Agree...though I think if we admit it to ourselves, we really could agree on quite a few ways to be more responsible if ego, corruption, money, politics, etc...were not involved.


Sure, but at some level I think one of those seems to lead to the other. Or really, and depressingly, all you need is a vocal group to go against the common sense stuff to make it a big issue anymore.

Not just saying guns, but the battle against vaccines in some corners and so on. And given the nature of the internet and such battling misinformation and individual bias is a much more prominent war than ever.

And that is in addition to the things you are pointing out. Which, depending on the organization in question varies over time etc. But is present.


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      It is like most politicians are just happy to scede the debate to the NRA and be done with it. Ignoring that the NRA is not a good source for the history of gun rights either. Their ideas are actually quite scary and hinge mostly on scaring people. At least from what I can tell from the speeches I hear. I would much prefer them doing more to help official agencies to do more to make gun ownership safer with training and the like. At least it is something. Not the lone hero facades they want to paint.



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    Agree once again.







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