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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,233
In Reply To
Ancient One 

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,925
Subj: Re: Religion - your beliefs?
Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 at 08:50:43 pm EDT (Viewed 610 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Religion - your beliefs?
Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 at 11:25:48 pm EDT (Viewed 538 times)

    First of all, the big bang and the inside of a black hole are two different situations. The general consensus - and the one I agree with - is that the universe didn't begin as a singularity.

I didn't say they were the same, where did you get that from?

My claim was that it's unknown if singularities actually exist. I cited this as my supporting evidence.

"Gravitational singularities are mainly considered within general relativity, where density apparently becomes infinite at the centre of a black hole, and within astrophysics and cosmology as the earliest state of the universe during the Big Bang. Physicists are undecided whether the prediction of singularities means that they actually exist (or existed at the start of the Big Bang), or that current knowledge is insufficient to describe what happens at such extreme densities."

And here's another one:

"Are these singularities real, or just vestiges of the gap between math and reality? Based on their experience with other systems, physicists suspect that the singularities in General Relativity are a warning, a tip-off that we need another theory to describe the physics in the extreme situations when gravity is very strong and its quantum effects are very large. Physicists still don’t know how to describe the quantum effects of gravity, but we hope that by doing so we will one day resolve the singularities."

"I suspect that what we call the singularity in black holes either doesn’t exist (there is some law/effect we don’t know about) or, if cosmic censorship is true, the nature of that singularity both doesn’t matter and can’t be known, since it can never interact with the rest of the universe. There are some theories (guesses) that would fix the whole “black hole singularity problem” (like spacetime can only get so stretched, or some form of “quantum fuzziness”), but in all likelihood this is just one of those questions that may never be completely resolved."

    No, it doesn't. It's talking specifically about ring singularities, which ARE more complex events to form. And I don't agree with her assessment of it.

It does too.

"In a very specific mathematical case, the singularity in a spinning black hole becomes a ring, not a point. But that mathematical situation won’t exist in reality. Others say that the singularity is actually a whole surface inside the event horizon. We just don’t know. It could be that, in real black holes, singularities don’t even exist."

    The math tells us that's what's almost certainly happening inside a rotating black hole. There is debate about it as there are quantum effects that may prevent such a singularity from happening, but no one's sure about what effects - if any, quantum effects are often counter-intuitive - they'd actually have.

And yet time and time again the articles I'm citing are clearly stating that it's unknown whether the math is just an abstract concept which doesn't occur in nature. I don't know what more I can possibly say to underscore that we don't know what's in a black hole other than the existence of your abstract math.

    I think you're trying to make it seem more complicated than it actually is because you didn't want to be corrected. Sure, there's debate over some aspects of black holes, but they tend to be pretty technical, and you're using those debates to distract from the argument.

I don't mind being corrected at all. But nothing you're saying convinces me that we know what's inside a black hole for the reasons the articles I cited are telling me.

    Put simply, a black hole is a region of space where matter has collapsed in on itself to form a very powerful gravity well.

    Whether there's a singularity at the heart of a black hole, or as near a singularity that makes no never mind, we KNOW what's inside a black hole.


    Dude, with all respect to the journalists, you've picked two articles by journalists. I'm not saying they're completely inaccurate, but they have a job to do, and part of that job is to make subjects seem more mysterious and exciting than they actually are.

Even is guilty of sensationalism? Even so, these are people with pretty impressive pedigrees. I'm quite certain any sensationalism is rooted in truth.

    What's actually going on here is this: We've worked out what happens under these conditions (very high gravity) using general relativity (which predicted black holes in the first place). The math works, and it tells us what's happening in there.

Do we know whether it leads to another universe or not?

Stephen Hawking: Black holes may offer a route to another universe

As I keep saying: We don't know what's inside a black hole. Even if that just means our atoms get crushed and spilled into another universe, we don't know.

Source: Stephen Hawking, the god of black holes

    That's seems like a tough one. Can a point with no dimensions be said to exist? My take on it is: It's interacting with the space around it - yes, it exists.

Cool thought.

    Indeed it didn't. Nor should it stop anyone from examining the subject. Wormholes (outside of a black hole) are a possibility that need looking in to.

We'll just have to disagree.

"An observer falling into a Kerr black hole may be able to avoid the central singularity by making clever use of the inner event horizon associated with this class of black hole. This makes it theoretically (but not likely practically) possible for the Kerr black hole to act as a sort of wormhole, possibly even a traversable wormhole."

    By the way, Carl Sagan was another one that lots of Christians predicted would break down and pray on his deathbed.

    He proved them - and you - wrong.

So says Ann Druyan. Which I don't have reason to doubt. But she also said that "at this moment ... anyone would be forgiven for turning away the reality of our situation..." so that's a strange thing to say if she didn't believe it uncommon or unsurprising for atheists to have a deathbed conversion. Also, the thing about Carl is this: while he didn't have religion, his son Dorion criticized him for essentially substituting that need with his never ending efforts for extraterrestrial life and making contact.

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