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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,233
Subj: I sought to provide the context...
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 at 02:15:37 pm EST (Viewed 285 times)
Reply Subj: Re: I am not sure that is the right reading of that text...
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 at 03:24:23 pm EST (Viewed 325 times)

your claim has been that these people believe that they should be able to do things to homosexual people. And that it is flat out stated in their faith. I have pointed out that it is hypocritical. You do not like that.

The message the Visitor posted, the verse, is complicated. It mentions homosexuality, but it is not the primary sin being addressed in it.

In fact, there are different readings of it. 


    it does reference lesbians. So, good on that. However, pulling the whole thing out of its larger framework is a disservice.

    1:21 For although they knew God, they
    did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile
    in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23
    and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling a
    mortal human being and birds and four-footed animals and reptiles.
    1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 1:25
    They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the
    creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
    1:26 For this reason God gave them
    over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural
    sexual relations for unnatural ones, 1:27 and likewise
    the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in
    their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men
    and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. 1:29
    They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness,
    covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit,
    hostility. They are gossips, 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. 1:32
    Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice
    such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of
    those who practice them.

    Homosexuality is listed, but not as a reason that they are given over to sin. Idolatry is. God's punishment to them seems to be to allow to them to go nuts and indulge in all of whatever they want to do. It does for sure start in homosexuality but given that this is God's punishment (hardly a blessing of the act) they are being hit with that as being unnatural to things. Then there is a laundry list of other sins being committed by these people for turning away from God.
    The reason for the focus on homosexuality in particular probably has a fair bit to do with Paul and those of the faith looking down on the homosexuality celebrated in Greco-Roman culture, or at least the upper tiers of it.

    Even with all of that as it may, those with the greatest sin's in the New Testament are the first to be forgiven when they ask for it. Despite what they have done. Most of the lessons are about finding faith in God as a cure for any and all sin.
    When taken together with all of Jesus teachings it seems pretty clear that he is not in favor of turning anybody away because of their activity. He goes out of his way towards people that are judgemental (he washes a prostitutes feet despite her actions being an afront to God).
    It thus seems a bit strange to me that a Christian can, in good conscious, seek to judge a homosexual person one way or another. If they do that than they are violating his own teachings.
    Hell, based on the ideas of idolatry, one could say that most people in today's world worship at the alter of technology and greed than anything else.

It's amazing how lengthy your arguments are, yet strangely still don't respond to what you think they do.  Here, you offered no argument against what the Bible says about homosexuality, merely that it was a derivative of idolatry so God gave them up to homosexuality, along with a laundry list of other sins.  In other threads, however, you challenged whether homosexuality was actually forbidden in the New Testament by debating whether the Greek words were properly understood and mistranslated as homosexuality.  In mine and other responses, you've been provided enough examples throughout the Bible where, hopefully, a common theme against homosexuality is now quite clear.

Your argument in this post boils down to God being an all-forgiving type, and that to love everyone excludes Christians from being allowed to 'judge' homosexuals.  You argue that disallowing homosexuals to teach at Christian schools is within the category of judging (and I presume hate and bigotry).  Yet what is so irritating is your willful ignorance that at these schools, the teachers often lead prayers before the start of each class and are looked to by the students as Christian role models.  You try to cloud the issue by lumping a laundry list of sins that the Bible mentions next to homosexuality, and pretend that because many Christians are guilty of those, that it's hypocritical to disallow homosexuals from teaching at their schools.  But I can assure you - Christian schools don't want drunkards, gossipers, slanderers, etc. as school teachers, either.  Teachers may have occasional slip ups like everyone, but they want teachers that make a clear and conscious effort to refrain from those activities as lifestyle choices.  And that concept, an effort to reject Biblically forbidden lifestyles, is the key and dot that you can't seem to connect.

It makes them hypocrites. Do they ban people who make the lifestyle choices of wearing mixed fabrics, eating shellfish, eating pork and numerous other things? 

If you consider homosexuality a lifestyle choice, those others surely are choices by any metric. I imagine the church might even serve or wear some of those things. Why make distinctions for homosexuals? They may be Christian and believe in Christ's message? 

They are hypocrites. They are pointing a finger and there are fingers pointing back. 

You do not have to accept what I am saying, but they are selective hypocrites. Just choosing to pick the stuff about gays, like 6 versus (and not as clear as folks think). Just because you support their beliefs does not make their beliefs much more than hypocritical in the end. 

You point it out for liberals all of the time. Deal with it. 

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