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Subj: Re: If you think having served while voicing that Ukraine should cede portions of its country to Russia doesn't make you a coward, then you have a low bar for manhood
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 at 08:55:02 am EDT (Viewed 273 times)
Reply Subj: If you think being pro war on the internet is bravery, then you're setting a pretty low bar for bravery lol
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 at 01:57:51 am EDT (Viewed 255 times)
LGDB: Let's just say I don't think you'd apologize if you were in my position. lol
Also who cares? Are you telling me your feelings are actually hurt about this?
Because you're not a big enough man. No, my feelings aren't hurt, more like insulted. Are your feelings hurt that I feel you're a coward, though? It sure seems like it bothers you.
Let's get this straight. You actually think part of Ukraine belongs to Russia. "I like where your [Rehzon's] head is at"! re: Rehzon: "Neither side is good or heroic, but Ukraine should be Russian land."
After all your posts, I'm convinced that you're a Lochlan coward. You're ignoring that many Ukrainians will needlessly die by not doing more than what Biden is doing.
Quote:The more immediate issue of practicality is that it's not just a matter of giving them weapons. There's a tremendous troop deficit and there's a matter of training those troops. We can't just magic those things into existence even if we were willing to finance them indefinitely, and this would all take time that they simply don't have. They're losing ground by the day while their infrastructure is being decimated or secured by Russian forces. Even if the political will existed which overall it clearly doesn't, which is why we haven't already intervened.
More chicken talk.
"Ultimately what convinces me that Russia cannot win is Napoleon’s maxim: “In war, moral power is to physical as three parts out of four.” The Russians might have more materiel, but the Ukrainians have a decisive moral — and morale — advantage. While Ukrainians are desperately fighting for their homeland, many Russian troops weren’t told where they were going and are surrendering at the first opportunity."
This is the most important factor: which side believes they are fighting for a righteous cause. Even if the Russians are better trained and equipped at this point, a soldier that doesn't believe in what he's fighting for will surrender or desert when things start going bad.
Quote:LGDB: Well as I've mentioned before, your position isn't any braver since you're not going to be doing any of the fighting from what I can tell. Your bravery seems to manifest mostly in, let's call it, a symbolic fashion. Of the two of us I believe I'm the one who was "brave enough" to actually put on a uniform and go down range. Have you done anything other than talk about things on the internet? To be honest... I'm almost 40 now and couldn't really give a good screw about proving to you, myself, or heaven above how brave I am. But... I have to say being told I'm being chicken by a civilian who never went through basic much less left the wire, does strike me a TAD ironic lol
If there was a draft, I'd be the first to hop in line. By all indications, you'd flee to Canada in a KFC truck. I think you exaggerate your service, the danger you were exposed to, the fighting you did, and then try to peacock like you're some big hero. I have family members in the service - they consider what you're doing despicable. It's not my fault you lost your nerve to fight.
You're afraid of a nuclear attack. I live in the Washington DC area, so this means my locality would be prime target #1 for the blast and its radiation. So, it's not just about picking up a gun, it's also about accepting choices and the risk that this could happen. I say it's ridiculous, you say it's not, and so I say you're a coward for fearing this.
Quote:LGDB: If you're not willing to abide by the board rules, I'm afraid you'll have to be banned and deleted and so on. It's not much more than the touch of button. And not to be too glib here, from a technical standpoint... I think we can work it out. lol
Then please do. I already know that what I'm saying angers you because it hits too close to home. Your solution is to ban me. Make my day! I'll laugh at the cowardly move.
Quote:Also, I'd say if you have more interesting things to be doing, you should probably be doing those things.
Quote:Dually noted about your agreement with Jocko. I disagree with it, but I never commented on this. It doesn't seem something worth debating.
I think you're losing track again of our exchange (You said, I said), but okay.
LGDB: A normative claim is prescriptive. It suggests what OUGHT to be done. A descriptive claim is about what is happening or is the case. This is the distinction I'm making. Does this still not make any sense to you?
It still makes no sense, to me, how you applied it.
Break it down.
Jocko said: "" - This is an example of a normative claim
LGDB said: "" - This is an example of a descriptive claim
LGDB: If you feel like "false accusations" have been made against you that doesn't give you license to decide which rules you'd like to follow.
Neither you! You now understand that what you said was untrue/inflammatory and you don't apologize. Therefore, you broke the rules you pretend to uphold and now you're lecturing me about rules. You cast the first stone and you're whining when I return the favor. I tried to be cordial with you, if you'll reread. It's not my fault you decided to pick a fight you can't win.
Quote:I admitted I was mistaken about what you said. Not that there was anything that I needed to apologize for. And I think we both know you've been far more insulting at times, and been far less apologetic.
I've apologized before. Go search for it. You see, that's what a man does - apologize when he's wrong.
LGDB: OH I know. I follow what you mean. You think if we implement your strategy everything would work out. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'm not pretending like anything's "all sunk," I'm acknowledging what's likely to happen. I find that's a better place to start that beginning from a sort of moralistic fantasy position.
And you think that by implementing your strategy, devoid of morals, that Putin will be appeased and stop his incursion of East Europe. You actually think this is Putin's endgame, that it's all he wants and is willing to stop at Ukraine.
Quote:And again, there's that chicken attitude talk again lol You know what I think would be a good way to prove you're not a chicken? Join the military and go into a combat oriented MOS. Be an 11B! Put your money where your mouth is, as it were. You can't fight the bad guys with a keyboard lol
More chicken talk: if you can't win a debate, pull your military creds to say why non-service members need to be a chicken and flap their wings like you. As I said, if there's a draft, I will happily join. Will you reenlist? Are you done fighting? You're pounding your keyboard pretty hard against me, why not transfer that energy to a fighting spirit?
LGDB: Well first of all if you think that what you're doing here by having these loud, boastful "strong" positions that don't seem to relate in any way to your own actions or experience is an act of manhood... I'd say maybe your picture of manhood is more imaginary than based in the real world. Opinions cost you nothing, you don't have to do anything to earn them, and you risk nothing by having them. Not exactly man stuff. Second stop basing your ideas of manhood off of movies like Braveheart lol
I'm basing manhood on attitude. If you're the type who adopts a weak position and tends to run from/avoid conflict at all costs, then this is weak manhood. It's true that opinions cost nothing, but you volunteered your opinions and it seems like you prefer to flee and avoid.
Quote:For instance, you should consider there's actually a diversity of political opinions in the military. No question it leans conservative, but there are literally hundreds if not thousands of people who have both been in fire fights or were nearly killed by IEDs, and then got up the next day to do it again, and then also voted for the Democrats. I think the thing you should consider is that there are no political opinions you can espouse on the internet that make you tough, brave, or a man of any kind.
I'm not saying my opinions are "tough". I'm saying your opinions are cowardly. You're the one trying to make it sound like I'm trying to establish myself as a tough guy. I'm not. I'm fully on board with Jocko Willink's position and see anything too short of that as cowardice. I'm making an observation and forming an opinion about what's cowardly, not what makes me tough. Do you get it? The reason you keep flipping this on me is because you know what I'm saying threatens how you perceive yourself. You're trying to prove to me that you're not a coward, and you're doing this by pulling out your military creds like I'm supposed to be impressed.
Quote:Also, I'm not a Democrat. Believe it or not that word actually corresponds to certain things in reality, like political beliefs, voting record, ideology and so on. It's not just a word that just means anyone to YOUR left.
You vote democrat.
Quote:As far as why I joined the military, I joined shortly after 9/11. The country had just been attacked. It was crazy then. It looked like it was going to happen again. I didn't know much about politics and it seemed like what needed to be done. It seemed like war was going to happen and as everybody was saying, better to fight it over there than over here. And I was 19. Like every 19 year on the face of the planet, I had something to prove. I also had some friends and family member who had served, and in some pretty highspeed fields that made it seem like a much more manageable, not so mystified process of how you go from some nobody kid off the street into a real soldier.
Did you join because you loved America and wanted to protect it? And, how quickly did you start becoming anti-war after joining? If there was a draft today, would you join or move to Canada? What do you do for a living now - would you drop all of that if America was attacked by Russia to go fight again?
Quote:And I don't judge people's service based on why they joined. I mean, whether you have noble ideals or you end there out of desperation isn't really important to anyone in uniform. It's THAT you're in uniform and what you do in uniform that anyone gives a damn about.
I do. If you didn't join because you believed in America's ideals and values, then you're not a worthy soldier. You will surrender/desert when the opportunity arises because you don't believe in the nobility of your cause.
I think I've identified what type of soldier you were. Feel free to correct that, though: please tell me that you believed in America's ideals and values, and that they were/are worth fighting for and I'll happily apologize and shut up.
Quote:And so my question to YOU is... since you have this attitude about war and manhood... why DIDN'T you join?
We all make mistakes and have to live with the consequences. I'm man enough to admit my shortcomings, but praise those who did better than me. I love service members and think they're heroes. But you, I'm not so sure. I love service members who love their country and believe it's worth fighting/dying for. I'm not sure you believe in any of that. And if true, it's hard for me to respect such a mercenary-type service.
LGDB: Well the next presidential election is 2024. Do you think the Ukrainians can hold out that long?
Depends on how much Biden gives Ukraine. Believe it or not, I'm CHEERING for him to give them more, even if it means a democrat 2024 win. Yesterday, when he called Putin a war criminal, I smiled. But, he needs to do a lot more.
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