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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
The Avenger

Location: New Jersey
Member Since: Thu Dec 02, 2021
Subj: Re: Illiberal upstarts reinvent conservatism
Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 at 10:05:46 am EDT (Viewed 152 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Illiberal upstarts reinvent conservatism
Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 at 08:34:21 pm EDT (Viewed 174 times)


      I suppose, but freedom can be such a vague term that it is often easier to say than it is to really do much with. What is freedom to one is very different for freedom to another.


        Not saying it is not a laudable goal. Because protecting freedom and providing various things are great in principle. In practice it seems like almost every good intention can be exploited by somebody.


          It is sort of the story of humanity, not unique to the US. In the US among our many battles seems to be where one person's religious freedom ends and another person's right to be begins. As freedom of religion is now very much a sword and used more to seemingly hack into others rights than as a shield to protect their ability to worship.


    You seem to operate in a general spirit of pessimism. Am I right about that? If not, then where does your optimism reside? What positive goals do you tend to think are achievable? What values do you tend to think we humans can fulfill?

Pessimism or realism depending on the point of view. I think it is more a realization that the if we are talking politics within the US in particular that at almost any level I have just seem too many things needed die or never get traction while things that are more "culture wars" and surface dressing get pushes and do little other than divide.

It would depend on what you mean goals and on what level. Do you mean like things we should strive for as humans?

The question of what can we do to, in the sense of what would we be able to do, is a depressing one to me. As at the moment I would say not much.

    I, for my part, readily assume that positive goals can be achieved and positive values can be fulfilled. Not perfection - there is no perfection on the earth - but perfection has never been necessary.

I do not think there needs to be perfection, but am more in the camp that I do not see much good coming out of any front on most issues.

    As for which goals are positive - I admire and support any goal that incorporates the values of freedom, innovation, integrity, health, and joy. Where these five values are held high, humanity will rise and advance. Nor does everyone need to agree on the details of these five values. There is no uniformity of purpose or method where freedom reigns. But uniformity has never been necessary.

Those would be good goals I think, but I would probably add environment in it for me. For me as a person it is a positive goal because at best it touches on health and some of the others in addition to improving the world we live in. In practical terms it improves many debates we are currently having at the Federal and State levels, as they will get worse otherwise.

However, based on experience within the US political system I am also of the mind that the chances of any action being taken and then being upheld are near zero.

In abstract terms I can come up with a list of what the priorities should be and it probably would not be that different from you in the end. I am just skeptical that anything gets done on those fronts given history. It usually takes some major political will to accomplish anything and the context of how it was done is often fought about for ages after.

So, pessimism covers me well I suppose. Sort of like you can tell with freedom discussions. I am all for freedom and liberty. I just think it gets complicated to determine what to do in given situations when two people's liberty or freedom collide. My impulse would be all things being equal to the one that does the most good or harms the fewest in society. Since the former moral judgement is hard to capture and is not often a good way to legislate as it often defines things as good vs evil. And more realistically in the system we have power is most important. It feels like too much is done because one can or pure politics as opposed to actually doing much to help somebody.

Look Raist bunnies...