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Post By
bd2999 
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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
Late Great Donald Blake 
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,462
Subj: Re: You do know why. You just disagree with the answer.
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 at 01:03:14 pm EDT (Viewed 106 times)
Reply Subj: You do know why. You just disagree with the answer.
Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 at 11:27:27 am EDT (Viewed 91 times)



    Quote:
    As a leftist...



    Quote:
    The idea is that liberals have similar values to my own, but (I claim) the Democratic party power structure often doesn't share those values or stops policy that expresses those values. The Democrats say they want to achieve certain material ends. The point of discourse is to reveal how the liberal establishment often intentionally subverts progressive, democratic politics, or is to fraught with contradiction or countervailing interests to achieve those goals. With liberals it's possible in theory to leverage their supposed political commitments they say they have to the political apparatus that they've committed themselves to. I maintain the most important political project it terms of both significance and practically is to get liberals to join the class struggle and abandon the partisan culture war.


I think is dangerous to assume that everyone has the same values. One would hope there were common core values but that does not mean all beliefs are going to be the same.

Regardless of what you do, there is not going to be uniform agreement on everything. I would hope not anyway.

I think the culture war highlights the success of the GOP and conservatives though. You easily win elections on sound bites and half truths that get people mad. True solutions take too long and are not easy and do not win.


    Quote:
    Generally speaking there's no point in pointing out that Republicans aren't sufficiently helping the poor or producing an equitable society. It's knocking on an open door. The only thing to do is defeat them politically. I'm open to rational discussion with anyone, but I don't share the same political values often with the conservative so one has to be more discerning as to when that's productive.


Which is great, but it does not change that they are winning and winning enough voters to make sure it is harder for anyone else to win power back even if the electorate would want it.

Seems like they are more the opponent than the argument that folks in the Democratic party are corrupt and not progressive enough.

That is not really how the GOP is winning. Infighting and removing the corruption is a good goal, but the system as a whole is the source of corruption and dealing with it within one party is effectively disarming unilaterally. The system itself is broken.


    Quote:

    The point is if you're a liberal at this point you absolutely have to abandon the mode of apologizing for the corruption of the Dem party or always immediately comparing its fundamental flaws because they're better than the Republicans. If liberals actually care about winning, and not just being superior to the Republicans (an exceedingly low bar), they have to switch to a mode of reforming the party as a primary project. If the left and the rank and file libs join together they have the terminal mass to make the party be whatever they want it to be.


It depends on what you mean by corruption. As alot of party corruption is based on money and power. The system requires money and power makes you want to keep it. Courts have sided with money in politics so it is a one way fight for a party to be noble and perform these actions while the other takes advantage of all of it and reaps whatever benefit. It would need to be fixed at a higher level, otherwise moral superiority is just a word.

You have to care about winning or whatever else does not matter, right? If you are not in power than you can do nothing. I mean the system as it is majorly aids Republicans and conservatives.

Among the major problems that liberals, and Democrats have, is that they have a large number of low incidence voters. And when the GOP makes changes it makes them angry but they become depressed and disinterested and do not get involved. Getting those folks motivated is important and critical but there is no magic code to it that I have ever heard or it would be done as much as possible.

I am cool with the Democratic party being more progressive and to push for decopling of money in politics but the system of politics right now is going to be hard to beat at any level. Gerrymandering, voter distrubution and indoctrination of voters into things and ease of being reactionary really prevents high level policy wins.

Add to that the government system in general resists changes that need to occur. If you do not win super majorities than a progressive agenda is dead on arrival and that is impossible with how the current system is.

The GOP has weaponized corruption and faced few consequences and just used it to entrench power. Dems better focus on winning or they will only win small majorities on wave years and that is assuming the ruling government deems it legit and is not able to get away with accusing everyone not in the GOP of fraud.





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