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Post By
bd2999 
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
atrimus

Location: Saint Louis, MO
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,478
Subj: Re: I'd say mobilize before you arm.
Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 at 09:18:56 am EDT (Viewed 145 times)
Reply Subj: Re: I'd say mobilize before you arm.
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 05:13:59 pm EDT (Viewed 153 times)



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            Before anybody could ever talk about any kind of armed struggle we need to greatly increase our numbers organized around a class conscious project. That means of course rejecting neoliberal capitalism and forwarding the needs of working class people which is to say the forces of democracy. Don't get me wrong I'm not discouraging any radical action. Just saying you need the people before you get the guns.

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            I think Atrimus may have been advising the Left to arm themselves in self-defense against an armed assault by the Right. But I could easily be misinterpreting, and if so, my apologies.

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          You’re correct. Some of the same Justices that overturned Roe v Wade once called it settled law; Republican officials have both subtly and brazenly called for physically assault on their political opponents; “Stop the Steal” nonsense; Jan 6th; the open association with (and in some cases, endorsement of) extreme right racists/fascist organizations, etc. The right has gradually chipped at the wall called “What can we get away with” and at some point they’re gonna breech that wall into outright armed authoritarianism.

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        They are not seeing any punishment for it. Some of those folks win primary votes to power. The GOP base has become fairly extremist. Not everyone but they are putting forth pretty bad folks.



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    No, not everyone, but the rational elements of the Republican party have definitely become the minority.


Sure seems that way. I am still generally of the mind (even though it is a distinction without a difference) that most are not like hardcore Trump MAGA fans, but most are just as happy to go along with it even if they are not so directly toxic in speech.


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      Honestly, unless high level people are punished for January 6th nothing is going to change and next time the coup may work.



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    I’d like to be wrong, but I’m not even sure that will help. They’ll just twist any prosecution of Jan 6th culprits into claims that said culprits are being unfairly and unjustly persecuted. And they’ve sewn and stoked so much conspiratorial doubt in the system that enough Republican voters will buy into it.


Oh, that will happen for sure. I mean they have done it for Jan 6th. Like that one lady that got shot while breaking in to get to Congresspeople become an icon in some right wing circles for reasons that make no sense. An African American or group of school kids can get gunned down and they will defend gun rights, self defense and so on but actively support a woman breaking through baracades to get to elected representatives being evacuated.

I still think something needs done even at that risk though. If nothing is done than it is just a dinner bell. Although it could just be symbolic in the end. As a future president could pardon them and so on and so forth. Which is depressing to no end.

The GOP in particular often does some pretty bad things and then sets it up as the Dem president to follow would be playing politicals with the legal system for prosecuting them. Torture, illegal wars and so on and so forth. Seems to be a running theme at the moment but the rule of law (already hanging by a thread) makes it necessary to do something.


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        Protesting has done zilch. Gerrymandering, and a host of repressive laws passed Republican state legislature (and upheld by the Supreme Court), has all but rendered voting a futile enterprise. I’m in no way an armed revolution type, but the trend set by the right suggests that reality is gonna come to a point where the left will either have to cede it’s existence as it is now, or take up arms in self defense.

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        Probably so. I think one big problem is that the left is harder to rile up. Momentum fades faster a bit of the time as opposed to those who hold grudges. And the GOP, like you said, is really good at holding onto power once they have it. Pretty much kicking democracy in any form to the curve.



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    True about the left being harder to rile. I’d like to hope that RvW being overturned might light a more prolonged fire under some seats though.


I think between that and the gun ruling it is something at least. A fair number of folks are mad, but are they mad enough?

The one against the EPA troubles me greatly too along with the ones that basically strip more and more rights from criminal defendants or immigrants. Even having the facts on their side is not enough anymore.

Honestly, doing something about SCOTUS has got to be a rallying cry at this point and a coherent plan to rally around. Things like term limits and so on. Expanding the court always sounds good and I am for it but is going to be a harder sell I think, although the court is not in a good place right now in terms of popularity.


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      All of that is a real problem, but highlighted with SCOTUS and probably the biggest problem that it is just checking off conservative wish list items at this point. Something needs to be done with regards to that. Most other countries do not have an absolute court that pretty much establishes rules as it goes and can change the regulations on the fly despite having to ignore decades of confirmational rulings. Term limits, putting more on the court or something needs to happen.



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    I’ve grudgingly come around to the idea of stacking the courts, if for no other reason than to check it’s power. It’s comical how the Supreme Court is supposed to be one of the cogs in the checks-and-balances system, yet it itself has no check on its authority.


It is true. I mean hypothetically a Constitutional Amendment can but those are so rare that it makes them pointless.

I think term limits should be put in place as well. I think other things need done but would take longer. Oddly the court gave itself the power it has and there is not a tool to make them as they are. The more extreme they become the president just could stop listening. Not a good thing for the rule of law but if the high court is lawless what else can you do?

I honestly think it's authority needs reworked as well. Give Congress more of a direct tool to resist. As most other Western countries do not have this problem as they have more restrictions on the court.

Tearing rights from people should be highly troubling to all. Saying a law is not ok is one thing but taking a right away that has been on the books for 50 years in addition to other decisions makes no sense. Some precedents should be undone but seems like this one has a goal to be as toxic and reactive as possible going down the check list of GOP grievances.


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      And the avenues to achieve these goals within the system and one of the parties participating is really hard. Particularly with a system already resistant to change.

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        I hear and empathize with you. I think it is a downer for sure. There are always regressions in history but this one particularly hurts.

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          The window to meaningfully act on climate change is closing and it looks like nothing will be done by the US government since one party has decided it does not want to do it.



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    Lo and behold:



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    https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-epa-ruling-2e893673819a1b6c6aa272a5e814f0b0


This one makes me particularly mad.


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          I've come to a political view which, in some ways, is on your wavelength, LGDB. But I don't (yet) subscribe to the idea that all issues boil down to the class struggle. For example, how does the class struggle inform the debate around concealed carry of a firearm? Guns are owned and carried by poor people, middle class people, and rich people. If anything, since the poor and middle class outnumber the rich, I would think a Marxist would favor expanding the ownership and carrying of firearms. Do you in fact favor that?





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