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Post By
bd2999 
Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
In Reply To
seeker

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,976
Subj: Re: Wokism
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2022 at 12:09:26 pm EDT (Viewed 155 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Wokism
Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2022 at 06:59:54 pm EDT (Viewed 164 times)



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      To some extent I may agree, but to me it has started to seem like it tilts too much the other way towards individuals that seem to be offended by anything that differs from what they think should be. It is their right to think what they want but at times it comes very close to being very ugly (racist, sexist, homophobic etc).



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    This is growing problem with extremists on both sides of the political spectrum.


Indeed, my frame of reference is mostly as a weak criticism thrown in things like facebook comments about pop culture stuff. Which mostly seems to go in the direction I indicated, although I have seen the inverse as well. Not as often but I have seen it, which may be more of a reflection on where one looks.


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      On another board I had a very long discussion and the best definition of the concept I got was that media was shoving certain ideas or lifestyles down people's throats and they had enough of it. Mostly they said this referred to making women like men in giving them male traits or normalizing homosexuality or LGBTQ things.



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    My understanding is something is "woke" is when a piece of media exists for the sole purpose to push the perceived progressive agenda. A common example is when a previously existing intellectaul property is changed include things that are considered part of said progressive agenda.


It may be, I was just repeating what I was told. I think the challenge at times is when an agenda is really being pushed so to speak. As just including political narrative within the greater context of the story is fairly ubiquitous throughout the history of film, books etc.

To me, at least part of it, stems from hyperawareness within the culture. In many respects people wanting to be offended by something so they find a way and will read that into everything.


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      To me that seems odd, so whenever the media or movie does that, it is woke and will lead to failure if it does not delve there or is it only when an existing property is changed to fit there?



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    I have seen it used for both though most frequently the latter. That said there is no hard and fast definition. I think it is overused. That said I can see why some people do think some things are "woke."


Oh, I can as well. I just find it to be overused and mostly useless as a criticism tool because of that. And because it seems to be fairly broad in what it means.


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      Like Ghostbusters (2016) I would agree falls under that to some degree with a gender swap with the lead cast, but I do not think that is why the movie was not very good. It was just not a very good or memorable film, but it is still there.



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    I don't think this was a good film for a variety of reasons. One reason being this is something I can see being insultingly "woke" and not due to the all-female cast. IIRC, all males in the film are either over-the-top stupid, losers, or out to put the female protagonists down. It is an exaggerated "take that" at the patriarchy. Compare that to the 1990s cartoon Extreme Ghostbusters with a much more diverse cast or the more recent film that had a female lead. Neither one felt like it was pushing an agenda.


Sure, I am curious how much of that was intentional and just bad film making though. It is not like the female leads are written particularly well, the comedy is far too ad lib for a movie to focus on tecno babble, one does not believe they are scientists because the dialogue is pretty bad and they are not established believably and the story is utter garbage masked with bright colors.

Compare it to the original film (which honestly has a number of modern conservative themes, but a favorite of mine) and it is mostly made on the jokes within the dialogue between the lead characters whom feel established fairly quickly.

Nothing to do with men or women as such but it went from a comedy that got more and more overty crazy to one that started out crazy and had noplace left to go. And had maybe one joke that I found to be somewhat funny.

To me, the main crime was that so many took offense to the movie or defended it. The movie was an utterly forgettable money grab off a nostalgic property. They switched the leads to all females to gain a buzz but that does not mean the movie had to be bad.

It still blows my mind that they let them just make up their lines. That is not how this sort of movie should work on the whole at all. Maybe you keep a joke like that but that is it.


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      I bring this up only because it seems to be an overused criticism that I am not sure is a criticism. I mean the most recent example I have seen be somewhat hammered as woke that is quite good was Sandman. Opinions will differ but alot of the folks knocking it are doing so based on the most cosmetic or gay being icky perspectives.



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    It is overused. It is a simplistic, quick insult for anything that is changed in anyway that does make something more diverse or updated. The progressive equiviliant is calling someone a white supremeist even when they have understandable objections to something.


I am not as familiar with that but I do not doubt it. I have seen some of the labels like sexism and the like thrown around to readily and making them less useful, but often the people that are the worst at it would have decided long ago that they are not and would not be effected anyway.


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    The Sandman's case is ironic because the original comic did feature homosexual characters. And the point of The Endless is they take different forms.


Yeah, I feel the source material is not particularly well known. The biggest one may be the Lucifer gender swap, but it really has no impact on the story and the actor was good in the role. The Constantine stuff amused me more than anything or the black Death. People just want to be upset sometimes I think.


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      There is just some irony about some groups that fight to be offensive being offended and so willing to throw out a blanket label.



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    I don't think everyone who uses it is trying to be offensive though a lot are trying to be offensive. In some cases, I think the people upset do have a point.


And they may, but often it is the least helpful criticism. I made it a blanket statement based on my experience but it is of course going to be true that it is not all or nothing.

One can legitimately criticize something and it may even be woke in some respects but to just hide a criticism seems to fall too often under the umbrella of those that probably would criticize shows with female leads more often than male leads without regard to content.

The reverse is also going to true but it makes it impossible to fairly judge legit criticism of something if one is judging it based on their own political perspective. Or at least primarily through that lens.


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      I have seen it used a little with the She Hulk show but have not seen it yet myself to judge one way or another. I am sure it focuses on experiences some women have, and should with a woman lead.



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    I have only seen one episode so far and that wasn't "woke." There were some humor at how hard women have it, but but a few jokes hardly make anything woke. I read similar claims made against the Hawkeye series a few months back.


I liked Hawkeye more than I thought I might. More because he was never my favorite Avenger but I very much liked it.

Among the arguments I have seen though seem to indicate that pointing out problems women may specifically face is woke. As some do not believe them true. This might be the work of trolls I guess, but it is more out there than one would like. A show with a female lead would be expected to deal with at least some issues that women deal with more often than men.


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    To me, if a piece of media is "woke" or not depends on how heavy or much it changes something to promote an agenda.



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    Shows I consider "woke":



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    Ghostbusters (2016) - For reasons stated above I don't recall a single sympathetic male in their compare to all the other Ghostbusters that have a more balanced treatment of the genders.


I would agree with the males, but I would argue that the female leads are also badly written characters for the most part. And overall not funny. Scientists making queef jokes is the best that they had in there? It was a pathetic effort all around.


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    Masters of the Universe: Revelations - The advertisements, interviews, etc promoted He-Man as front and center. Instead, he is pushed aside for Teela. This itself wouldn't be enough to make it woke. It is the show claiming to be a sequel to the 1980s series only for major parts of the lore to be thrown out to show how special Teela is along with Evil-Lyn's ridiculous backstory and getting away with it all at the end. It is female empowerment at the expense of everything else.


I enjoyed this one ok, but I would agree based on the marketing lead in. I will admit to loving it as a kid but not remembering everything in terms of cannon though. I thought it was fun enough but did wish it would have more He-man in it, but it was good when he was. Really I thought it was fine when he was not as well. I just considered it false advertising.


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    Thor (2014)- Jane picking up the hammer is not woke. Jane picking up the hammer and suddenly being the best thing, loved by everyone etc. along with Odin being every evil old white guy sterotype one can think of and Thor moping about his lost hammer makes it woke.


You are referring to Aaron run? Sure. Between Jane and particularly the treatment of the original Thor it was pretty bad.

I still hold that a female Thor may not have been a bad thing, but simply how they made Thor unworthy was the laziest out possible. I feel it could have been a great story where he gradually lost worthiness because he was in situations where there was not right thing but it ebbed and ate at who he was. Then he goes on journey's to become worthy either in mini series or part of the main title.

I also think the stuff with Jane was handled with too much Mary Sueness as she just was good at things because. I feel if they would have handled more like Maesterson where he had to learn the ropes and made mistakes but was doing what he could with the powers and so on would have been interesting. How is a female Thor viewed and that sort of thing.

To me the problem is not addressing issues that women face in particular, it is not giving good characters to do it. Women are just as complex as men are with all sorts of struggle in their lives. Give that complexity and struggle and the idea of being in a large shadow sort of thing and it may have been interesting. Some may still hate it but I would have been more in on it.


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    Things that are "not" woke, but have been called such.



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    The Sandman - Yes, some characters have had their gender or race changed from the comic. It has had no effect on the story and isn't shoving said changes down your throat.


I have heard a fair number disagree. I liked it though. The casting of Dream was outstanding.


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    He-Man and the Masters of the universe (2022) - Some characters have had their race changed and it promotes the message of He-Man sharing the power instead of keeping it to himself. Yet it is not at the sacrifice of story or feel like it is forcing an agenda down your throat.


I was unaware there was another He-man.


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    To be fair, progressives can hide behind cheap insults to though it is less common. The Seth rogen show Santa, Inc was lamblasted by critics. Seth claimed anyone who insulted it was a white supremacist.


No question there. I think it is somewhat derived from social media and the ease and unaccountability along with it. Although I feel it is being more weaponized by the right. As it is more or less the ground work for anti-CRT and various anti-LGBTQ bills that are having more impact that simply not liking a show or book.






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